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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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 We need control
#9031490 - 10/05/08 07:58 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Govts, military, police.
Without them the violent humans would run amok.
Look at what happened when Russia let go of the satalite countries. They couldn't wait to start fighting amongst themselves.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
  
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,273
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 9 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9031549 - 10/05/08 08:39 AM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Let'em have chaos, maybe they'll learn something from it 
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight 
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 13 days, 1 hour
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It's all a cycle anyways. I'm afraid that the more the government protects us, the more "freedom" we'll have to give up to stay protected.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Let'em have chaos, maybe they'll learn something from it
That's a pretty big maybe Missy. Humans are emotionally chaotic for the most part. This is reflected in the things we pursue. Politics and religion and philosophy are a result of this chaos IMO. I don't think humans are going to change their patterns of emotional unskillfulness anytime soon.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 20,453
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 9 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9033449 - 10/05/08 05:04 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I don't think humans are going to change their patterns of emotional unskillfulness anytime soon.
Individual human beings are changing these patterns all the time to some extent or another as the course of their life is followed. Survival depends on it, really. 
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Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up 
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,510
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9033453 - 10/05/08 05:05 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Maybe you need control. I certainly don't.
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we are born naked, wet, hungry, and torn from the woman we love. then things get worse.  
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I don't think humans are going to change their patterns of emotional unskillfulness anytime soon.
Individual human beings are changing these patterns all the time to some extent or another as the course of their life is followed. Survival depends on it, really.
I doubt you would find much difference in our emotional makeup and a Egyptian or an Greek or a Roman. It's always been true that a small percentage of folk go beyond the norm.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 511
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9033474 - 10/05/08 05:10 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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As far as concepts of anarchy, admittedly I have not delved very deep...Yet it seems there is no agreement even there.
To some anarchy seems like a viable idea. However I have yet to hear anyone with any real practical ideas of how it could work.
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
   
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
#9033486 - 10/05/08 05:12 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Maybe you need control. I certainly don't.
I don't need control either because I can control myself in major issues. Most people can't do this. They start fighting and clawing the moment you turn them loose. They were just waiting. IMO humans rarely raise emotionally healthy or skillful offspring.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 511
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
#9033495 - 10/05/08 05:13 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Maybe you need control. I certainly don't.
says the monkey with the gun...
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,273
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 9 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9033504 - 10/05/08 05:15 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
That's a pretty big maybe Missy. Humans are emotionally chaotic for the most part. This is reflected in the things we pursue. Politics and religion and philosophy are a result of this chaos IMO. I don't think humans are going to change their patterns of emotional unskillfulness anytime soon.
It might be a big maybe, but I'm willing to experiment on it any time over anything else. Maybe because each time I've put myself face to face with things that frightened me, I somehow found a way to understand what's happening and grew from it. 
The more pampered and "protected" one is, the more incapable one becomes to rely upon themselves. Sort of like hypochondriac people who stuff themselves with so much medicine that their organism becomes totally unable to produce antibodies on it's own.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,510
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Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Maybe you need control. I certainly don't.
says the monkey with the gun...
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we are born naked, wet, hungry, and torn from the woman we love. then things get worse.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
That's a pretty big maybe Missy. Humans are emotionally chaotic for the most part. This is reflected in the things we pursue. Politics and religion and philosophy are a result of this chaos IMO. I don't think humans are going to change their patterns of emotional unskillfulness anytime soon.
It might be a big maybe, but I'm willing to experiment on it any time over anything else. Maybe because each time I've put myself face to face with things that frightened me, I somehow found a way to understand what's happening and grew from it.
The more pampered and "protected" one is, the more incapable one becomes to rely upon themselves. Sort of like hypochondriac people who stuff themselves with so much medicine that their organism becomes totally unable to produce antibodies on it's own.
As I said there are always a small percentage of humans would will become somewhat emotionally healthy. They are rare. Consider yourself lucky.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,273
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 9 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9033890 - 10/05/08 06:28 PM (1 month, 29 days ago) |
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There might not be many, or there might be more than we'd think, when faced with real situations in which they have to face their issues and grow from them. I guess where I'm getting at is that I don't think the number is important, and that I'm always wondering why should any form of control exist just because some people are unable to help themselves? Maybe the next step towards evolution is to let those who can't or won't be responsible die of their own stupidity, and the others to get on with their lives.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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Tchan909
plagiarist
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 3,609
Loc: SF Bay Area
Last seen: 12 minutes, 45 seconds
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It is a shame that the best must live by the rules set by the worst.
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not necessarily stoned, but... beautiful.
The Albert Hofmann Collection
Doctors and other wizards are forbidden under Martian Law!
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 224
Last seen: 17 minutes, 57 seconds
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Quote:
figmentfragment said:
As far as concepts of anarchy, admittedly I have not delved very deep...Yet it seems there is no agreement even there.
To some anarchy seems like a viable idea. However I have yet to hear anyone with any real practical ideas of how it could work.
The common conception is that anarchy leads to gang violence, chaos, wanton destruction, a complete breakdown between all people.
The thing is that anarchy is always the system we have - especially if you go by the common conception - because initially there were no rules or governments, until gang violence, chaos, and wanton destruction appeared. The violent gangs profiting from the chaos and wanton destruction took power and became our governments.
Anarchism is in fact a way of saying that we don't like the violent gangs, and that perhaps we could live without them.
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Truth is known in silence, so if you're going out of that area you should expect some rather peculiar blemishes on the enterprise.
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 511
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 25 minutes
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Yes. This is a common assumption.
Anarchy itself is a huge broad term. There seems to be groups of people dissatisfied in vague terms about the current system, with no real direction...some of these people do engage in violence and "chaos", but by no means does this represent the whole.
Some form groups with others who match closest the school of thought. But even within the umbrella of anarchy there is much disagreement.
My direct experience with anarchy is a bunch of pseudo vegan activists, with misdirected aggression, who do a bunch of infantile vandalism, and talk, talk, talk...
No one I have ever met in person or on the net, has mentioned any workable alternate to the current system.
Hence my doubt.
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 224
Last seen: 17 minutes, 57 seconds
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Most things you do on a daily basis are already anarchic - things you've agreed to go along with of your own volition because you see a benefit. The government has written established laws, but people don't consult laws on a daily basis to govern their actions - we freely violate the ones that don't seem to harm other people while benefiting ourselves, while freely "choosing" not to kill other people or wreak havoc for far more practical reasons than governmental obedience.
What is the government really doing for citizens that couldn't be done easily without one? What really is a politician?
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Truth is known in silence, so if you're going out of that area you should expect some rather peculiar blemishes on the enterprise.
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Rahz
Spore Viewer
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 2,044
Last seen: 10 hours, 40 minutes
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Here is a link that challenges your assertion:
Zeitgeist Addendum
It's the new Zeitgeist! I actually like it better, because they don't mush themselves up with historical assertions regarding religion. It's 2 hours, but if you liked Zeitgeist you'll dig this. The alternative to your assertion is addressed towards the end.
They paint a rosey picture, but it's certainly worth considering. Control is needed because of existing problems. If the problems are fixed, there is no longer a need for control. It's technology as savior. One guy does admit "It's not a perfect system, but it's better". They attempt to address the obvious question of whether such a system would produce more virtuous behaviour. I'm not sure I agree... but it's an interesting take.
The whole film is mostly an attempt to describe the underlying cause of the modern worlds problems that create the apparent need for control. For anyone who watches, is their model too simple?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
Edited by Rahz (10/05/08 11:49 PM)
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learningtofly
Stranger
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 2,433
Last seen: 20 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: We need control [Re: Icelander]
#9035202 - 10/05/08 11:28 PM (1 month, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Govts, military, police.
Without them the violent humans would run amok.
Look at what happened when Russia let go of the satalite countries. They couldn't wait to start fighting amongst themselves.
I hope this is a joke, you do realize that "govts, military, [and] police" consist of violent humans don't you? and you do realize that they rule by violence?
I seriously hope this is a joke otherwise your view on the world is fundamentally flawed.
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GnuBobo said:
You're a stupid hippie. That's my point.
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