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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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 "You got to get into it.
#9027830 - 10/04/08 10:49 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Before you get out of it".
I believe that many people who choose to believe in religions and new age mystical beliefs that cannot be proven to be real really just want to escape being human.
Human is really way too messy for them with it's ups and downs and pain and decay and darkness. So they try to meditate on nothingness or believe in ultimate love and goodness in the hopes they can transcend themselves and their very messy experience and avoid the challenge of being a human animal.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Huehuecoyotl
 
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9027855 - 10/04/08 10:55 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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WTF is wrong with that? We all do it...every one of us. If believing in giant seahorse living on Jupiter makes me happy I'll do it!
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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 supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Quote:
I believe that many people who choose to believe in religions and new age mystical beliefs that cannot be proven to be real really just want to escape being human.
What about those of us that believe reality itself IS mystical and deeply spiritual? I don't want to transcend anything, I love being human. It is because of my love for being human and my deep appreciation for existence that I find meaning in life.
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Every perception is governed by belief. Isn't it cooler to believe a bunch of crazy shit?
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
WTF is wrong with that? We all do it...every one of us. If believing in giant seahorse living on Jupiter makes me happy I'll do it!
I didn't say it was wrong now did I?
You often jump to conclusions that were not presented in the original post.
I'm debating the underlying reality behind the motivations that allow people to lie to themselves.
But to address your post. It's not wrong but IMO for best result needs to be done consciously and I think this rarely happens.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9027901 - 10/04/08 11:04 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Yeah, you want people to jump to conclusions so you can come off with smart ass shit like that...lol.
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
supernovasky said:
Quote:
I believe that many people who choose to believe in religions and new age mystical beliefs that cannot be proven to be real really just want to escape being human.
What about those of us that believe reality itself IS mystical and deeply spiritual"? I don't want to transcend anything, I love being human. It is because of my love for being human and my deep appreciation for existence that I find meaning in life.
What do you mean by "reality is mystical and deeply spiritual. I think life just is. Why place labels like that on it?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9027963 - 10/04/08 11:17 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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And I think that "is" is a profoundly mystical term, because like it or not, it is not explained. What makes things real, what makes them solid? Protons and electrons? sure. What makes them real? Quarks? sure. What makes them real? What made the big bang happen? How did this all get started? There are scientific ways to explain everything, including those above questions when we get advanced enough, but it is the process of advancing with a goal and a purpose for life that I believe we derive spirituality and mysticism from. Mysticism does not have to be separated from scientific reality. I've found real meaning and purpose in the universe itself, rather than something I've created in my head (although, if you want to be technical, you are creating the universe in your head right now  ).
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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What makes them real? Quarks? sure. What makes them real? What made the big bang happen? How did this all get started?
These questions don't have to be seen as mystical. They are currently beyond our understanding and that's really all we can say about them.
but it is the process of advancing with a goal and a purpose for life that I believe we derive spirituality and mysticism from.
Sure but this is most likely a made up process. We make it up to comfort ourselves. There is no evidence of a mystical or spiritual purpose in human, animal and earth evolution, or in the universe itself. It's just here happening as far as we honestly can tell. Most people find this very unappealing for many reasons.
I've found real meaning and purpose in the universe itself, rather than something I've created in my head
To me it's apparent you are kidding yourself here. It's all in your head. Any meaning you can find to back your spiritual beliefs. There is no scientific or verifiable evidence of it anywhere that I have seen.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
Edited by Icelander (10/04/08 11:45 AM)
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supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9028153 - 10/04/08 11:59 AM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
These questions don't have to be seen as mystical. They are currently beyond our understanding and that's really all we can say about them.
I think that this does us a great disservice if we simply write it off as "simply beyond our understanding." There will ALWAYS be things beyond our understanding, because the more doors we open, the more hallways we find with a thousand doors. The real deal is that even if we answer all of these questions, the one we will never be able to answer is... "What makes it all real?"
There is no particle, no mathematical equation, no understanding that can ever answer that question... but yet, everything IS real. That's where I derive my mysticism from. The beauty of life itself, of the universe itself, is quite mystical to me. It doesn't have to be real, but it is.
Quote:
Sure but this is most likely a made up process. We make it up to comfort ourselves. There is no evidence of a mystical or spiritual purpose in human, animal and earth evolution, or in the universe itself. It's just here happening as far as we honestly can tell. Most people find this very unappealing for many reasons.
I do believe there is evidence of a mystical or spiritual purpose in human, animal, and earth evolution, and the universe itself. The fact that it "is" happening is what is mystical and profound, because it is unnecessary. Sure, it "is just happening" but that ANYTHING "just happens" is a profound statement. The entire universe itself is built upon an evolutionary path, where order arises from chaos (though entropy eventually wins). Remember quarks arose from a chaotic soup of energy. Atoms arose from a chaotic soup of quarks. Molecules arose from a chaotic soup of atoms... only because these forms were the fittest, the more stable.
It's the blind watchmaker, the universe itself has this way... this path... that everything follows, everything flows towards. The purpose of evolution, though not "intelligently decided" (though we do not know this, this entire reality may be a computer simulation to find the answer), is to take a chaotic mix of things, and create something orderly out of it through a massive amount of interactions.
In this, we can find purpose not in something make-believe, but something real... that in the end, the two greatest forces will compete... the force of entropy, and the force of evolution. Who knows which one is more powerful.... even if entropy will win in an infinite amount of time, we never reach infinity, and time is relative anyhow.
The purpose of life and evolution, in my mere opinion, is to find an answer for entropy.
Read the short story by Isac Asimov called "The Last Question."
You may find nothing mystical or spiritual in this, and I suppose that's what differs us. I simply believe the "is", the existence of anything, is the greatest, least understood yet most profound quality of this universe. I also believe that one can find purpose in the laws of the universe, whether or not that purpose is intentional from the universe itself.
Edited by supernovasky (10/04/08 12:01 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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I think that this does us a great disservice
And how does this do me a great disservice? Please answer this. Why do I need to know why things exist? If I don't know will that make me less happy or less successful than you or anyone else.
I do believe there is evidence of a mystical or spiritual purpose in human, animal, and earth evolution, and the universe itself.
Then were is the evidence for it? We both can see and feel the sun but I don't see or feel any of your evidence of mystical spiritual purpose.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9028257 - 10/04/08 12:22 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
And how does this do me a great disservice? Please answer this. Why do I need to know why things exist? If I don't know will that make me less happy or less successful than you or anyone else.
You don't need to know why something exists, and it won't make you less happy or less successful. I think though that to simply say "it just is" dodges the question and is not a real answer. Though it may be true, it is still something outside of the realm of science, but something real, something that cannot be explained and will never be explained. The ONLY way we can think about it is in a metaphysical sense.
Quote:
Then were is the evidence for it? We both can see and feel the sun but I don't see or feel any of your evidence of mystical spiritual purpose.
The evidence for purpose? That the sun and its heat even exists, that the atoms you are using to make these thoughts even exist, and that as we evolve, we achieve a greater ability TO evolve, perhaps not physically now, but culturally, socially, technologically... the purpose is in the path, the tao, the way and natural flow of things... I am not saying that the universe itself intended this purpose, but purpose can still be found.
The universe can be seen as an evolutionary experiment. Here's a thought experiment for you... imagine the countless number of civilizations in this universe all evolving on their own. Those civilizations that kill themselves off will discourage the expression of their societal values in the larger span of things in time. Those civilizations that love peace and engage in creation will be more numerous as time goes on because of evolution, they have survived their own species and never destroyed themselves. Now think of it from a technological perspective... as time goes on, the civilizations that will be expressed more will be those with the ability to harness the forces of the universe and create new, powerful technology with these forces... those with the ability to create order out of the natural world will get further than those that do not have that ability.
The "purpose" is, in the end, running an infinite amount of evolutionary experiments on a countless number of species in this universe, to find the species that can survive the most and the species that can derive order from a chaotic world the best, and a species that can develop the greatest technology... This species, knowing that the universe itself will end, will almost certainly want to find a way to make sure that the universe does NOT end. Who knows what mechanisms it will have to prevent such from happening... I've already read of a few mechanisms in SciAm of possible mechanisms... such as information imprinting on the event horizon of a black hole (A black hole's event horizon is the place where everything freezes. Nothing from an outside observer can truly cross a black hole, it slows to a stop once it reaches the surface of the horizon... so 3 dimensions of data can be imprinted on a 2 dimensional surface because an infinite amount of 3-d information can be stored on a 2-d surface (or at least, infinitely close TO the 2-d surface).
The purpose is engaging in creation as much as possible.
I try to apply common religious tenets to physical, observable reality... For instance, eternal life. You never cease to exist, nor do I... if you look at "self" as actions and movements, rather than a body. I am not flesh and bone, though they house "I" and they create "I." I am the sum of all of my actions. When I wave my arm, I send forth atoms that will change the universe as we know it, affect every other atom in this universe... I am not that which waved the arm, I am the series of actions resulting from it. Every part of me is connected to every other person's series of actions, and thus, we are all part of the same process, all part of the same series of actions and all of our actions are connected, if only by a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction's percentage. We're all children of the universe.
Anyways, yeah, I find a lot of meaning and purpose in reality itself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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"it just is" dodges the question and is not a real answer.
It's the only honest answer and we don't have any "real" answers right now. It doesn't dodge anything. You look and realize you can't answer the question so you don't.
Purpose is something that comes from the human mind. Beyond simple survival and procreation I can see no "purpose" in evolution.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9028342 - 10/04/08 12:36 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
It's the only honest answer and we don't have any "real" answers right now. It doesn't dodge anything. You look and realize you can't answer the question so you don't.
There are questions that CANNOT be answered though. What makes things "real" is one of those that CANT be. Therein lies my idea of god... that which makes everything "real." Not an intelligence, not a person, not a thing, just a rule, just an idea... even if we find the answer to that question, it will still be god, because it meets all of the criteria FOR "god."
Quote:
Purpose is something that comes from the human mind. Beyond simple survival and procreation I can see no "purpose" in evolution.
Purpose does come from the human mind. We derive purpose from many things. There is no fault in deriving purpose from evolution, but even if we don't derive purpose, the end result is the same... the creation of the ubermensch, the ultimate being, the being that can adapt, create, and change the best.
Edited by supernovasky (10/04/08 12:37 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Therein lies my idea of god... that which makes everything "real."
So you are saying that mysticism and spirituality are completely subjective.
Purpose does come from the human mind. We derive purpose from many things. There is no fault in deriving purpose from evolution, but even if we don't derive purpose, the end result is the same... the creation of the ubermensch, the ultimate being, the being that can adapt, create, and change the best.
I didn't say purpose coming from the human mind was wrong but it is subjective.
I see no evidence that evolution is trying to create the ultimate being. All things live in balance and imbalance and no one ever reigns supreme for long. Superman is just a comic invention.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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supernovasky
Scientist
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1,470
Last seen: 1 day, 12 hours
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9028415 - 10/04/08 12:51 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
So you are saying that mysticism and spirituality are completely subjective.
Absolutely. I believe everyone finds their own truths.
Quote:
I didn't say purpose coming from the human mind was wrong but it is subjective.
I see no evidence that evolution is trying to create the ultimate being. All things live in balance and imbalance and no one ever reigns supreme for long. Superman is just a comic invention.
No evidence? Look at humanity and imagine the other intelligent civilizations. Evolution doesn't just apply to biology, it applies to corporations, societies, technology... Evolution has created a biological organism in us, human beings, but now it is creating a technological organism from us. Wrong technologies fail to dominate, good ones will take over (look at the history of technology, starting from bow and arrows and going to guns, particle accelerators, nuclear reactors).
And think about it... Regardless of whether or not evolution is "trying" to create the ultimate being, an ultimate being will be created. All things live in balance, this is true, but we have the capability to wipe all life out on this earth as we know it. That's not balance, that is power. As the grinding gears of time turn onward, civilizations will either destroy themselves, or attain enough of a peaceful existence to pass to the next eon. Those that destroy themselves will be those whose creative potential was outweighed by their destructive potential. Those that destroy themselves will let their self-desatruction outweigh their self-propogation. The purpose of evolution is quite simple but has many implications: It is to propagate. The means that it achieves this is through natural selection, springing forth beings that not only have advantages, but are BETTER at evolving.
It seems pretty clear to me that one day, since evolution is an intrinsic quality of the universe that we live in, only very advanced civilizations that have managed not to destroy themselves will exist.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 13,826
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9029490 - 10/04/08 05:26 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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I think at the source of most of the religions and belief systems you are disparaging there are concrete methods for living in ways that can minimize and potentially eliminate the pain of being a human animal.
It looks like you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater by dismissing all of these religions as if they consist only of the superfluous mythological shit that has grown on top of their core principles over the centuries. Compassion, nonattachment, nonjudgment, reverence, and unity are tried and true pathways to equanimity and bliss, but there's no need to take anyone's word for it.
The claim that spiritual teachings and religions are only useful as methods for denying reality is just another stubborn belief on the same pile. Just as worshipping 'proof' from sources outside one's own direct experience is only another dogma that makes individuals a little more comfortable with their existence.
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-oOo-
"My children," said an old man to his boys scared by a figure in the dark entry, "my children, you will never see any thing worse than yourselves." As in dreams, so in the scarcely less fluid events of the world, every man sees himself as colossal, without knowing that it is himself. The good, compared to the evil which he sees, is as his own good to his own evil.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Spiritual Laws"
-oOo-
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 511
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 16 minutes, 21 seconds
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Quote:
"The claim that spiritual teachings and religions are only useful as methods for denying reality is just another stubborn belief on the same pile. Just as worshipping 'proof' from sources outside one's own direct experience is only another dogma that makes individuals a little more comfortable with their existence. "
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
    
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Lion
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 3,754
Loc: The Becoming Tree
Last seen: 6 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9029833 - 10/04/08 07:48 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
that cannot be proven to be real really just want to escape being human.
Being human can't be proven to be real either...hehe. 
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"No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind, no realm of eyes and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness; no ignorance and also no extinction of it; no old-age and death and also no extinction of them; no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment and no non-attainment." ~Heart Sutra
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deranger
vote for happiness
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3,324
Loc: time
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Re: "You got to get into it. [Re: Icelander]
#9029911 - 10/04/08 08:14 PM (1 month, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I believe that many people who choose to believe in religions and new age mystical beliefs that cannot be proven to be real really just want to escape being human.
Human is really way too messy for them with it's ups and downs and pain and decay and darkness. So they try to meditate on nothingness or believe in ultimate love and goodness in the hopes they can transcend themselves and their very messy experience and avoid the challenge of being a human animal.
you are favoring one belief system over the other by failing to mention that of your own type. people of all types distract themselves not just through the things you mentioned. your OP is incomplete and biased, it fails to recognize the whole spectrum of belief and favors one system over the other.
also, meditation is productive for them, as it will help them to realize and move through their sticky beliefs. this is not avoiding or escaping being human. if you think this way then you have a flawed view of meditation.
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"you're in a boat, you choose the color of the boat
the boat's on the ocean
the ocean represents your spirit, your emotions, and your life
and the life that you're living is the boat, you're in the boat
you have an anchor, that you don't know you have, it's an invisible anchor
when you see it, that's when you'll be seen"
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