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 Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 6,848
Loc: The War Machine
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 Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Minstrel]
#8932387 - 09/15/08 09:36 AM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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She must be stupid then and would of surely killed herself at the thought of almost anything.
"I may die so I will kill myself" 
I hate to see loss of life but really its probably better that this girl didn't get a chance to produce offspring before she flipped.
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 PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
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 Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: DieCommie]
#8940440 - 09/16/08 06:39 PM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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**IF** a blackhole was created by this thing, wouldn't it fly off at slightly less than the speed of light, in a slightly altered trajectory from the collision trajectory of the two parent particles....? Wouldn't they be almost the distance of the sun away from here in like 8+ minutes....? I wouldn't think it would just be created and sit stationary....
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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 DieCommie
Ally
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8941860 - 09/16/08 11:28 PM (2 months, 16 days ago) |
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I would consider conservation of momentum. The two particles are coming in from opposite directions, so their net momentum is roughly zero (relative to the ground). So, no I don't think it would fly off.
If the black hole did fly off at some directions, then something else would have to fly off in the opposite direction (maybe another black hole?)
You said "collision trajectory" of the two particles, but they have different trajectories! They are going in opposite directions. Usually when doing collision experiments the physicists use a center of mass rest frame. That is, they consider what happens relative to the particles combined center of mass. This center of mass would be where the black hole ended up if it had all the mass in the system, and that would be inside the collider.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
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 Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: DieCommie]
#8951104 - 09/18/08 07:04 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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I said trajectory (singular) because I don't know how black holes are created,
so in my mind I was picturing one of the particles from the collision collapsing into the super sucker after the collision....
Hungry little bastards.... 
Just looking for explanations to make the world safe once again from the evil scientists.... 
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: DieCommie]
#8953405 - 09/19/08 04:29 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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> So, no I don't think it would fly off.
So rather than the ones that form in the upper atmosphere and evaporate, these will be stationary and constantly fed by the stream of incoming matter/energy? Cool!
Beavis: Hey Butthead, are we gonna die?
Butthead: Uhhhhhh... probably.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Platinum
Psychonautical Engineer
Registered: 06/04/08
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Ythan]
#8954264 - 09/19/08 11:00 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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the LHC is mad trippy...
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(______(________________((()
SIG-ARETTE
You can never be lost.
When have you ever been apart of me?
You can never depart and never return.
For we are continuous, indistinguishable.
Some say you need to be in touch with your inner child...
Me? I molest it...
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,021
Loc: Americas
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Seuss]
#8954284 - 09/19/08 11:06 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Can anyone quantify the frequency with which these upper atmosphere blackholes would form and remain close enough around the earth such that they would be discovered? Presuming they don't radiate as suggested.
That was the rebuttal I heard. Considering the age of the earth, size of the atmosphere, and likely, guessing, frequency with which such events would occur, I'm guessing we would have noticed these black holes by now if they could form and not evaporate?
Can anyone show that we would not have noticed, like say the chances of the black hole remaining anywhere noticable are so slim it explains why it has never happened?
The above seems to be the missing link with the the doomsday scenarios.
I think it was here, but someone also pointed out that it is stupid to call the LHC a recreation or exploration of the big bang- this is true isn't it?
I mean I guess weighing table salt is also an investigation of the big bang, determining mass of matter, et cet, but its kind of misleading as it implies some unique process.
Isn't the only thing unique that we can create these conditions close to detectors rather than waiting for them to happen naturally?
And aren't the energies we're talking about very very low on a quantitative macroscopic-relative scale? I mean we're talking about a few energetic particles, right? This isn't even the energy, the collisions, of a softball being thrown is it?
If it is misleading that might explain par tof the concern. The media's claims make it seem like we're recreating a big bang which suggest a scale that doesn't exist, and a uniqueness which also seems absent.
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Annom
※※※※※※
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo Indian girl to commit suicide [Re: DieCommie]
#8954313 - 09/19/08 11:16 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Nah, you wouldnt be moving at the speed of light. The tidal forces would kill you first. What that means is.. if you jumped in head first, the gravity your head feels would be much stronger than the gravity your feet feels. This difference in forces would pull your body apart like the rack I mentioned. I dont know how long it would take though, maybe it would be real quick.
Spaghettification, there is no better way to die 
Neil DeGrasse Tyson - Death By Black Hole:
Edited by Annom (09/19/08 11:16 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: johnm214]
#8954504 - 09/19/08 11:57 AM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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> The above seems to be the missing link with the the doomsday scenarios.
Considering that black holes are still theory and have yet to be proven... (Granted, there is a lot of evidence pointing towards their existence.)
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Seuss]
#8955452 - 09/19/08 03:56 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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What are some other possible explanations for phenomena currently attributed to black holes?
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Hematite
Newbee
Registered: 05/04/07
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: zouden]
#8955528 - 09/19/08 04:20 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
I see what you're saying. Earth can gain mass by collecting meteors. One way is for the meteor's path to cross that of the Earth and they collide. The other way is for the meteor to be attracted by the Earth's gravity, and then collide. If the Earth is converted into a black hole, the likelihood of the former happening is greatly reduced because the Earth is would only be 9mm across.
In fact, at that size even if things were attracted by the Earth's gravity they would just sling past it unless they come in at exactly the right angle.
The earth's gravitational attraction through the volume of space around it wouldn't change. Right now, sitting on the surface of the earth, we are accelerating at 1 g toward the center of the earth about 4000 miles away. Were the earth a black hole 4000 miles away we would be accelerating toward it at exactly the same rate-- maybe even a little faster because there would not be a large mass all around us pulling us in different directions.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Hematite]
#8955804 - 09/19/08 05:25 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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But we wouldn't hit it - our rotational momentum would make us sling past it.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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Hematite
Newbee
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Loc: Wisconsin
Last seen: 22 days, 14 hours
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: zouden]
#8955819 - 09/19/08 05:29 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But we wouldn't hit it - our rotational momentum would make us sling past it.
Past it and into it's accretion disk, getting squeezed into an x-ray emitting plasma in the process.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
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Loc: Australia
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Hematite]
#8955894 - 09/19/08 05:43 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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But how big would its accretion disk be? Probably not very large either, at first. It's dependent on how much matter is being captured, but I think most matter would fly past it without even being caught in a decaying orbit.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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DieCommie
Ally
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Hematite]
#8956170 - 09/19/08 06:51 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hematite said:
Quote:
zouden said:
I see what you're saying. Earth can gain mass by collecting meteors. One way is for the meteor's path to cross that of the Earth and they collide. The other way is for the meteor to be attracted by the Earth's gravity, and then collide. If the Earth is converted into a black hole, the likelihood of the former happening is greatly reduced because the Earth is would only be 9mm across.
In fact, at that size even if things were attracted by the Earth's gravity they would just sling past it unless they come in at exactly the right angle.
The earth's gravitational attraction through the volume of space around it wouldn't change. Right now, sitting on the surface of the earth, we are accelerating at 1 g toward the center of the earth about 4000 miles away. Were the earth a black hole 4000 miles away we would be accelerating toward it at exactly the same rate-- maybe even a little faster because there would not be a large mass all around us pulling us in different directions.
Right, but that 1g would only deflect incoming particles. Normally they impact the ground, but instead they would be deflected.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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Hematite
Newbee
Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Wisconsin
Last seen: 22 days, 14 hours
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: zouden]
#8956190 - 09/19/08 06:55 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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I wouldn't pretend to know a precise answer, though it probably would be an easy thing for an astronomer or physicist to model. Intuitively I'd think that anything passing closer than 4000 miles at a speed of less than the escape 'velocity' at the earth's surface (11.4 km/sec) would be trapped, as would any object crossing inside the orbit of any of earth's satellites at speeds less that of the satellite.
The average velocity of meteors/asteroids hitting the earth is about 17km/sec (ref this is a really cool site, btw), so if these were to just graze the 4000 mile mark they would escape. But at 3500 miles out the escape velocity would be 17 km/sec, and these objects would be trapped.
If my reasoning here is sound, then the rate at which a black hole of earth's mass would trap asteroids/meteors (i.e., rocky or metallic debris) relative to the rate the current earth traps it should be proportional to the volume of a sphere with a radius of 4 (268) to the volume of a sphere with a radius of 3.5 (179), which works out to 67%. The average velocity of icy debris (e.g., comets) hitting the earth is about 50 km/sec (same ref), which is the escape speed at 2440 miles out (sorry for mixing metric and English units). The volume of a sphere with this radius is 23% of that of a sphere with a radius of 4000.
So, assuming that the earth currently gains mass from these two sources at about the same rate (and it's anyone's guess how much mass we gain from small icy particles), then a black hole earth would accumulate mass at about half its current rate. Edit: I mean accumulate either in the black hole itself or in orbit in its accretion disk.
Edited by Hematite (09/19/08 08:17 PM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Loc: Australia
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Re: CERN's LHC causes 16-yo girl to commit suicide [Re: Hematite]
#8956294 - 09/19/08 07:18 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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That sounds reasonable. Nice work on the figures!
I wonder if this could be useful:
http://www.gravitysimulation.com/
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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