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Lat3ralus
Psychonaut


Registered: 05/15/08
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A little Aboriginal Inspiration
#8901506 - 09/09/08 10:58 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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posted this over at EDIT as well, wanted to get some thoughts and opinions
so i was watching this show on the History Channel last night about this tribe of like 70 people in Papua New Guinea thats almost 100% isolated from the world. So anyway the premise was that the tribe leader was dying, and along with him an ancient mummification process that would die with him if he didnt pass it along to his tribe. The last person mummified was his father 50 years ago. Their belief is that tribal leaders or warrior heroes become immortal and protect the tribe through mummification and sitting their bodies upright overlooking the village from a cliff above them. It was toucontinue to love ching to see the tribe chief visiting his father and addressing him and hugging him as if he was still alive. The chiefs brother was buried traditionally in the groung which, to them, is far worse than death itself because "when we feed the earth blood, it screams for more." anyway, the point of my post is that it struck me harder than before, but these people have a more connected way of viewing the world and death than we do. When our relatives pass away, we bury them, and eventually they are forgotten, making way for a new generation, selfish about themselves and rarely remembering their history. i reflected a bit about my own mortality and thought to myself, "ok, when i die, would i rather be buried in the ground, visited once or twice a year, and eventually not at all. OR, how would i feel if i knew that when i die, my family, and all the people that love me will see me every day, treat me as if im still there, and continue to see me as if i never left. personally, id feel much more solace knowing that even though i may not be there conciously, i would be there at least as a symbol of what i once was. and be able to continue to comfort my family in whatever way i could. Can you imagine how good it must feel for this tribe chief to know that looooong after hes gone that his son, his grandchildren, and generation after generation of family he will never meet will be able to actually hug their ancestor? Thats a powerful emotion once you realize the weight of this. we can learn a lot from these people, i can only dream of such a possibility when its my time, but you never know...
-------------------- ...push the envelope, watch it bend...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#8901683 - 09/09/08 11:41 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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While I agree that, in some ways, our lives would be healthier and happier if we adopted some of the tribal ideology (such as being more in touch with nature, for one thing), but I don't think that what you're referring to is in any way constructive.
Do you really think it is a good idea to start believing that the dead stick around and that they're here to help us?  We already have so much trouble dealing with wishful thinking such as the paranormal and religion and other stuff like that, and you suggest that we need more of that stuff? I don't think so.
Also I see no benefit in people remembering and worshiping my dead body, and the only reason one could want that would be because their own anxieties and the need to feel that somehow that they really were alive and that they really mattered. So I would look more into the reasons why I would want such a thing, if I were you.
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anyway, the point of my post is that it struck me harder than before, but these people have a more connected way of viewing the world and death than we do.
Of course they do. They're 70 people living, like you said, isolated from the rest of the world. Why should we want the same thing? Instead of looking for diversity of cultures, ideas, and information, you say that what could really help us is to come to an universal agreement?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8903051 - 09/09/08 04:53 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Do you really think it is a good idea to start believing that the dead stick around and that they're here to help us? 
The point isn't to appropriate some aspect of a particular indigenous culture and magically start believing the background mythology as they do (for one, this is impossible) but rather to try and take off your cultural blinders for a moment, attempt to understand as fully as possible how a practice or belief fits into the whole of the culture and what part it plays in bringing people together and organizing thier worldview and perhaps to take inspiration from the intricately varied ways in which people concieve of the world and thier lives.
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8903093 - 09/09/08 05:00 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Do you really think it is a good idea to start believing that the dead stick around and that they're here to help us? We already have so much trouble dealing with wishful thinking such as the paranormal and religion and other stuff like that, and you suggest that we need more of that stuff? I don't think so.
It sure is helpful to movie screenwriters and sci-fi channel "The Search for _ _ _ _" shows...
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating!
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8906679 - 09/10/08 12:05 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The point isn't to appropriate some aspect of a particular indigenous culture and magically start believing the background mythology as they do (for one, this is impossible) but rather to try and take off your cultural blinders for a moment, attempt to understand as fully as possible how a practice or belief fits into the whole of the culture and what part it plays in bringing people together and organizing thier worldview and perhaps to take inspiration from the intricately varied ways in which people concieve of the world and thier lives.
I was strictly answering to his post, as the poster didn't make it in any way clear that the point you just mentioned was the point he was talking about. From the way he expressed himself, it looked like magically believing in something and worshiping the dead is what he admired.
Personally I think that there are some aspects from the tribal life that can become very beneficial for our current life style if we adopted them, but, like I said, worshiping and blind belief are not one of those aspects.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8909329 - 09/10/08 09:17 PM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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I have to say that it's pretty glaringly xenophobic to say things like "tribal people" (read: primitive, undeveloped, backward, etc.) as a broadly generalized group are prone to such presumably unevolved tendencies as "blind belief." Who are you talking about? What element of thier specific conceptual orientation are you defining as "blind belief" and what exactly are these people supposedly blindly believing in?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8910083 - 09/10/08 11:31 PM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Hmmm, let's see what I was talking about: "this tribe of like 70 people in Papua New Guinea thats almost 100% isolated from the world." (which are exactly the words of the OP)  I fail to see how this is xenophobic of me, and I fail to see how I overgeneralize anything, perhaps are to shed some light into it? Because, other than your own interpretation, which seems to be a speculation more than anything, I see no reasons why you would think something like that.
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read: primitive, undeveloped, backward, etc.
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Read where? Let's see the complete definition of the word tribe:
tribe Audio Help /traɪb/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trahyb] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, –noun 1. any aggregate of people united by ties of descent from a common ancestor, community of customs and traditions, adherence to the same leaders, etc. 2. a local division of an aboriginal people. 3. a division of some other people. 4. a class or type of animals, plants, articles, or the like. 5. Animal Husbandry. a group of animals, esp. cattle, descended through the female line from a common female ancestor.
How does me calling tribe people tribal mean that I was trying to insult them?  Also, when I said :"Personally I think that there are some aspects from the tribal life that can become very beneficial for our current life style if we adopted them, but, like I said, worshiping and blind belief are not one of those aspects. "... again, I fail to see how this is xenophobic of me?  Does referring to a particular way of living (a relatively small community of people, ties by the same customs, traditions and culture) automatically means that I was calling them undeveloped (which BTW, doesn't necessarily imply that I was trying to dis-consider them or suggest that they are somehow inferior)?
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What element of thier specific conceptual orientation are you defining as "blind belief" and what exactly are these people supposedly blindly believing in?
Hmm, let's see:
Quote:
Their belief is that tribal leaders or warrior heroes become immortal and protect the tribe through mummification and sitting their bodies upright overlooking the village from a cliff above them. It was toucontinue to love ching to see the tribe chief visiting his father and addressing him and hugging him as if he was still alive. The chiefs brother was buried traditionally in the groung which, to them, is far worse than death itself because "when we feed the earth blood, it screams for more."
Does this belief have any base in reality? I think not. It is calling it a blind belief out of line? No? Then, what seems to be the problem that you are trying to point out?
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This party is old and uninviting
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8910414 - 09/11/08 12:29 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Personally I think that there are some aspects from the tribal life that can become very beneficial for our current life style if we adopted them, but, like I said, worshiping and blind belief are not one of those aspects.
You didn't say "I think there are some aspects of the specific culture described by the OP that we would be better off adopting" You said "tribal life" in the general, not in the specific. "Tribal" is a term in a continuum of similarily general terms used to categorize diverse cultures along a linear "evolutionary" scale in order to evaluate thier relative level of development (read: inferiority/superiority) as defined by eurocentric colonial ideology.
There is no such thing as "tribal life" in the general. The concept and alot of the baggage that comes along with it is outdated and has been largely abandoned as it makes far too many assumptions about supposedly common features across a wide and disparate array of specific peoples. One such assumption is that their way of explaining ordering thier universe is naively superstitious, built on so called "blind" beliefs and the "worship" of various strange figures (strange gods, 'totems', ancestors...) This is an assumption clearly expressed in what you wrote and so I was compelled to call you on it.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8910997 - 09/11/08 05:54 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
"Tribal" is a term in a continuum of similarily general terms used to categorize diverse cultures along a linear "evolutionary" scale in order to evaluate thier relative level of development (read: inferiority/superiority) as defined by eurocentric colonial ideology.
So basically you're ignoring all the other definitions I provided with, and choose to focus on one that, in your interpretation, is offensive for tribal people. I really think you should reconsider your claims, or at least explain how you have reached the conclusion that when I made a reference to the tribal life I implied that it would somehow be inferior. Perhaps you'll explain how using "tribal life" generally speaking is offensive, and how did you end up making the assumption that it was made thought the perspective of a "colonial ideology" - whatever that means. 
Quote:
There is no such thing as "tribal life" in the general. The concept and alot of the baggage that comes along with it is outdated and has been largely abandoned as it makes far too many assumptions about supposedly common features across a wide and disparate array of specific peoples.
Oh really? I'll just have to call bull shit on that too. "Tribal life" doesn't "come" with any baggage at all. The baggage is the meaning that different people give to different words or association of words, and it is purely subjective and carries an emotional content. It is not my problem if you choose to attribute this kind of meaning to "tribal life", and it definitely doesn't mean that these words should be banned from being used together.  The most fragrant meaning that "tribal life" has for me, is being in a group of people that are close to me, that share the same joy to live and learn about life, that I trust and care for and vice-versa, a group that is not driven by hidden interests, fear, thirst for power and other mangling and destructive motives.  I am if my understanding of tribal life is different than yours, I am not trying to sustain that this is the only meaning it could possibly have, I even admit from the start that it is yet another meaning of the multitude of interpretations that one could give; what I'm having real difficulties in understanding is how in the world did you end up deforming and giving your own meaning to something I have said? 
Quote:
This is an assumption clearly expressed in what you wrote and so I was compelled to call you on it. 
It is not an assumption since I was referring to a specific case, the case that the OP was talking about, and I already cleared this up. What I said was: "Personally I think that there are some aspects from the tribal life that can become very beneficial for our current life style if we adopted them, but, like I said, worshiping and blind belief are not one of those aspects." Obviously, when I mentioned that worshiping the dead was not a positive aspect, it was already self implied that I was referring to the example the OP provided with. If it was somehow unclear, I just took the chance to explain what I meant to say.
That being all cleared up, I am still wondering how the personal emotional baggage that you have regarding "tribal life", necessarily means only what you said it does, and, most important, how did you end up making the false assumption that it was where I was getting at. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
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Edited by MushroomTrip (09/11/08 07:24 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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Loc: underbelly
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#8911241 - 09/11/08 07:44 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Can you imagine how good it must feel for this tribe chief to know that looooong after hes gone that his son, his grandchildren, and generation after generation of family he will never meet will be able to actually hug their ancestor? Thats a powerful emotion once you realize the weight of this.
This is a beautiful description of death anxiety and reasoning behind it.
-------------------- What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Mermaid
~waterproof~



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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Icelander]
#8915618 - 09/11/08 10:27 PM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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our ancestors are always watching for us
-------------------- "the human dream doesn't mean shit to a Tree" - Jefferson Airplane
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Mermaid]
#8916736 - 09/12/08 05:01 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mermaid said: our ancestors are always watching for us
Really? How's that?
--------------------
This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8916752 - 09/12/08 05:10 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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They like to watch us shower. Not much entertainment on the 'other side'.
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating!
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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Lat3ralus
Psychonaut


Registered: 05/15/08
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Last seen: 30 days, 2 hours
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wow, this post turned into an all out fisticuffs. It certainly is sad to see how while i am simply trying to express the beauty of our planet, people habitually turn to conflict. its a direct representation of the nature of modern man. cant we just read something for what its worth, appreciate it, and take something from it that will hopefully, somehow, make our lives more beautiful. come on guys, theres enough conflict in this world, why create more?
-------------------- ...push the envelope, watch it bend...
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes

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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#9056037 - 10/09/08 09:21 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Because there's nothing to discuss if we all agree.
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Ubi
Stranger


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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Oweyervishice]
#9056088 - 10/09/08 09:31 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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When I die I want to be left in a forest naked so that I can feed the animals. I mean there's all this nutrition why lock it in a box away from things that could use it?
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Lat3ralus
Psychonaut


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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Ubi]
#9056137 - 10/09/08 09:40 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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.......all hope is lost for mankind
-------------------- ...push the envelope, watch it bend...
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Ubi
Stranger


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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#9056350 - 10/09/08 10:22 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Seriously? Haha I think that preserving our bodies and leaving them around is worse. I mean there is a cycle for all life and before humans when shit died it got eaten, why break the cycle? Why litter?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#9057274 - 10/10/08 04:54 AM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lat3ralus said: .......all hope is lost for mankind
Good. Now we can start having some fun
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
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Icelander
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Re: A little Aboriginal Inspiration [Re: Lat3ralus]
#9057715 - 10/10/08 08:53 AM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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we can learn a lot from these people,
Yes we can learn to be superstitious nutcases. But really we already know how to do this.
Boy do you and I think differently about life and death.
-------------------- What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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