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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8877124 - 09/04/08 01:32 PM (2 months, 29 days ago)

Nice!

Thanks for the update.  :smile:  I'm starting mine soon, next week.  And the threads on culturing beneficial microbes, etc is coming.  I got side tracked with some things so its taking me a bit longer than I thought.

I'm gonna test soaking rye berries in AEM and yucca (for surfactant) for 20 hours, heat for a bit at 120-130F, drain, soak for 2-3 more hours with AEM and yucca, drain/dry for a bit, then inject with LC.  I'll let you know how it goes...

Thanks for the great work Carsten!


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8885843 - 09/06/08 09:27 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Hey quickpick,


can you do an additional jar without additives? Would be great to compare the results. 

And for the other threads... Might be a lot of work to prepare all of them. Perhaps it is easier to start one after the other?


Greetings, Carsten


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8887787 - 09/06/08 05:51 PM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Hey Mycelio,

Sure I can do that.  But what do you mean without additives?  Just distilled water?  Or without yucca?

I'm designing and putting all my experiments on paper tonight.

And yes, I think that's a good idea about one thread at a time.  I've started the LAB isolation yesterday and I'll take a few pics in a few days and start the thread then.  After that I'll do the yeast thread and then the PnSB thread and then the thread to mix them (EM like), usage thread, etc.

You'll be interested in this:  This grow I've got all kinds of experiments going but in one I'm going to use the AEM with rye method (no PC), then into sub with AEM and case with pH adjustment to about 5,  keeping a low pH for mycelium and instead relying upon AEM microbes to preclude harmful microbes in casing, not a high pH of 8 or more.  No PCing at all and only light pasteurization.  Mostly as a proof of concept but I have high hopes, my AEM smells great and pH was 4.6 to start and after two days it was 3.7.  I'm gonna let it fall below 3.3-3.4 before I use it because I added hydrolyzed fish to feed the PnSB.  I'm thinking of doing a grow-log...

Later man :smile:


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8891774 - 09/07/08 04:30 PM (2 months, 26 days ago)

I think Mycelio meant try some jars the way he did, without adding AEM or something like that. Probably because it'll be interesting to see how many people can do this the way he did.

If it works well for a lot of people in many different parts of the world then it's probably pretty effective and then he'll know he isn't just lucky or that it isn't just his area which has a higher concentration of whatevers making it work.

Interesting that this slightly fruity sweet slightly sour fermentation smell reminds me of the really ripe manure that has lots of mushrooms.


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Offlinequickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: InTheRainySeason]
    #8892837 - 09/07/08 07:53 PM (2 months, 26 days ago)

Hey ITRS,

I read it to mean he wants to me use a control, for a comparison to my AEM soaked rye (which is a fast ferment).  If so that's good because I already doing that.

One thing other people are going to have to consider are chlorine and much worse are chloramines.  While I'm not sure what effect they have on higher fungals like p.cube I know chlorine will hinder microbes and chloramines can kill the whole lot of them.  Some city water systems are adding chloramines.  What this means is if you use this kind of water you will be killing or at least hindering the very microbes you are trying to use.

To remove chlorine you can leave it out in an open container for 24 hours.  Or put it in a bucket and bubble for 20 minutes.  Most any organic matter will remove chlorine from water as the chlorine will attack the organic matter and get 'used up' trying to attack the organic matter.  Humic acid is a fine choice IMO..just a little is fine, like 1/8 tsp per gallon or weaker.

To remove chloramines here is a method I know works, others do to but are more confusing or expensive.  I get 'ascorbic acid' from my beer brew store (where I get corn suger, etc).  It's a powder and I only apply 0.01 gram per gallon, more is not better.  I usually apply it in 10 gallons batches as it's easier to measure 0.1 gram.  But chloramines are mainly a US problem I think.

The best option for water to ferment with, short of using water from a 'good' pond or stream is steam distilled water:

A quote from my buddies study:
http://www.simplici-tea.com/water_quality_article.htm
Quote:

Testing is critical, especially in the beginning, to produce a tea that solves our problems. I would like to focus on water quality for AACT production. A client had a tea center for 2 years and was struggling to get good fungal numbers. He did all the chemical tests on his water and was told the water should work well for tea production. He then tested with another water source, keeping all other variables the same (brewer, temperature, time of day, compost, foods, etc.). The results showed he could produce good fungal numbers with one water, whereas the other water source had unacceptable numbers even though the chemical tests said each water should produce good tea. Because of the above experience, when setting up a farm with a 500 and 340 gallon brewer, we decided to test all of his water sources. We did the chemical tests and they were all acceptable for his tea production. The farm has 5 wells, a ditch, neighbor’s water, RO (reverse osmosis), distilled and soft water without nitrates. All of the brews used the same compost, foods, temperature, time of brew and 5 gallon brewer. The only variable was the water source. These tests were done prior to setting up the tea production. Our goal was to identify the best water source. Water is a huge factor in the quality of tea produced.

H2O........................Active Fungal.....Total Fungal.....Hyphal Diameter
Distilled.............................1.34............ ...14.7..................4
Ditch..................................3.34............. ..21.1..................4
Well water w/o nitrates....1.67...............3.91............... ...4
Well #3.............................1.02...............13.5 ..................3
RO (reverse osmosis).......0.70...............17.5............ ......3
Soft water w/o nitrates.......0.45...............0.96............... ..2.5

From the above tests it becomes obvious the ability to produce good tea varies with the water source. Though not truly scientific (no 3 replications for each water tested), it gave us an idea of the best water to use. I would strongly recommend the testing of all your sources of water prior to production by making tea and having these tested (We have used the Soil Foodweb lab in Corvalis, Oregon). There is a huge difference between chemical tests of water and biological tests of what the water will support and grow in the brewing process. We found ditch water had the greatest biological potential.














Thanks :smile:


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8894812 - 09/08/08 04:46 AM (2 months, 25 days ago)

The grain is fermenting well. So fast. I'm going to try a pf tek with fermentation water instead of regular water. I've always had problems with brown rice flour. Maybe this time I won't. To hydrate the horse/cow/worm dung I'll probably put the fermentation water into a mister and just lightly hydrate it. I'm going to try bird seed hydrated this way as well.

I'm going to try it with a liquid culture at first, adding mycelium to the fermenting grain, and then just using filtered fermentation water for a liquid culture along with a small amount of honey.
I've got some manure compost, as well as plenty of manure from the pastures. I'll try both. I also have a red worm farm and store bought worm castings. Trying both of those too.

Eventually I want to try about 100 jars of each substrate with the fermentation liquid, then 100 of the dung and compost without it. I won't even bother trying grains or bird seed or brown rice flour without sterilization or the fermentation liquid. I know it would contaminate.
There's some pretty aggressive cubensis that grows near here so I may try that but I'm mainly going to focus on store bought mushrooms.
The liquid cultures are going well.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5809138#Post5809138

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8319995#8319995


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: InTheRainySeason]
    #8894929 - 09/08/08 06:08 AM (2 months, 25 days ago)

Hello,


@Quickpick
yes, I thought about such a control jar only with grain and water. It is possible you have different strains of microbes flying around where you are, but it should work all over this planet as making sourdough without a starter culture also works everywhere.
Also, if you change several parameters at once, it will be hard to compare our results. That is something I usually mess up myself. In the end I have no idea, which change was reliable for the different results.

Good point with the chlorine. Didn't think about it as my tap water here only contains CaCO3 and CaSO4. As you said, boiling or letting it sit in an open pot for a day should reduce the problem.

And yes, reading a growlog of your AEM experiments would be cool!


@InTheRainySeason:
I am excited about your plans, but please consider starting a smaller number of jars on the first run. I think you are the first one using fermentation water and inoculating from LC. It would be sad if you had to dispose houndreds of jars.


Carsten


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8897669 - 09/08/08 06:02 PM (2 months, 25 days ago)

I'll probably try just 6 jars this month then 6 next month. I'm hoping I'll get to 100 jars with no contamination.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8319995#8319995


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8906965 - 09/10/08 01:06 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Hey mycelio, im curious about your pelletized straw. What brand do you use? Most pelletized straw is heavily cleaned and sterilized, and its expensive, have you used regular straw?


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8907096 - 09/10/08 01:32 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

It is called 'Natur-Strohstreu' by MultiFit. Don't know if that helps if you are outside germany. Got it in a pet store where it is sold to be put on the floor of cages with rodents, so it would absorb urine. I think it was 5 bucks for 8 kg. Somewhere I read the straw would heat up when being pressed into pellets, that might explain sterility. From my experience it is pretty clean.

As I live in the center of a big city, it seems impossible to get a bale of straw, so I never used that.


Carsten


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8908367 - 09/10/08 06:03 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Thanks!

My fermentation experiment with oats is looking positive. My p.eryngii is starting to colonize, while my cube's are still trying to figure it out, but no visual competition so far.

I did my transfers outside, I first rinsed my grain thoroughly  then laid it out on my trampoline in the sun to zap some excess moisture off. I then hand filled the grain and added spawn from jar with a spoon. Its been 3 days.


Oh and the grain was soaking with 2%-5% gypsum.

peace.


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
    #8910580 - 09/11/08 01:01 AM (2 months, 22 days ago)

Interesting way to get rid of excess moisture! :laugh:

But good to know that oats work too.


Carsten


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8926427 - 09/13/08 11:41 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Hmmm. Grain was steel cut which shouldn't be much of a problem but it floats a lot so I'm going to add gravel on top. I don't think the gravel will mess up the fermentation. This will make it easier to drain possibly. I also wrapped some oat and brown rice into some foil and poked lots of little holes in it with a tac and I'm leaving that one to ferment. The foil should make it easier to drain. Then maybe I can just inject the liquid culture into that when it's been drained.

The liquid culture mycelium didn't seem to mind the fermentation water.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5809138#Post5809138

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8319995#8319995


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: InTheRainySeason]
    #8927013 - 09/14/08 02:55 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Unfortunately I don't know what 'steel cut' means.
It is much easier to maintain anaerobic conditions below the surface than above. Can you remove the floating kernels, or would all kernels float?

Good news that your LC survived. Please describe what you did and which species of mushroom you used.


Carsten


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
    #8927400 - 09/14/08 05:44 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Great stuff folks.

A no bux ferment lock. Get a good toy balloon. Put a fine needle hole through the closed end, where there is usually a thick spot. Stretch over mouth of jug or cork with tube.  A good ferment will puff the balloon and excess escape through the hole.


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: JaComet]
    #8927624 - 09/14/08 07:41 AM (2 months, 19 days ago)

About half of the grain was floating. It was too messy for me to bother with so I started a new one with foil to keep the grains from floating. Psilocybe Subviscida. I injected the liquid culture mycelium into the fermenting jar and it started growing on the grains. That was the jar I started over. In another jar I soaked brown rice with the fermentation water and placed liquid culture mycelium on top. It grew pretty fast but subviscida may not be a good one to test this with because it grows so easily. I'll try a few more species when I can get around to it. The pH was pretty low at the time I inoculated the fermenting water. When I try cubensis or something else I'll put the mycelium in the fermenting water before it's been fermenting for long.


It had been fermenting for about 3 days before I put the mycelium in it.
Maybe it can adapt quicker if the conditions change slowly.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7710006#Post7710006

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8468503#8468503

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5809138#Post5809138

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8319995#8319995


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: InTheRainySeason]
    #8928701 - 09/14/08 02:02 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

I do not have the time to read through all of these post, but does this work for P. Cubensis?


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: HazeyRoms]
    #8928998 - 09/14/08 03:12 PM (2 months, 19 days ago)

Hey HR,

Quote:

I do not have the time to read through all of these post, but does this work for P. Cubensis?




Yes with caveats.  If your going to try this you really should read the whole thread, it's really interesting and there is info in there you should know.  Also, if you read my LAB thread that will give you more background info and understanding of what, why and how.


Quote:

By Mycelio:
Cube-Update:

In both jars the fermented grain got completely colonized and pins appeared. I used a mix of WBS and annual rye grass. Due to the small kernels it was too wet, there was some water pooling at the bottom and I had yeast growing in it, which slowed down growth. Next time I would use wheat, rye or rice and rinse better to get rid of as much yeast as possible.

So cube mycelium is able to grow into fermented grain, but it either takes very long to start or needs help by adding fermented straw.


Carsten




HTH :smile:


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
    #8931936 - 09/15/08 05:42 AM (2 months, 18 days ago)

This is beautiful. About 5 days ago I hydrated some shwag(cheap cannabis) with the fermentation water. I figured it wouldn't grow well because of the anti fungal compounds in cannabis and roger rabbit didn't have good results with bud. I put in mostly seeds because I think they'd be more nutritious than just bud. The seeds were cooked a while to prevent germination and then soaked in the ferment water and then drained and pressed with a paper towel to remove excess water. I poured it into a half pint jar till it was near the top.

I figured the mycelium wouldn't do well because of the anti fungals and because I used a syringe. Usually the syringe won't work well because I can't get much fungus in it as my LCs are always too thick, even for the blender. I normally just pinch mycelium off and place it in the substrate.


I also thought it would be a good test for the ferment water because my weed seeds always get moldy very fast when they're moist, but this time no mold. I can't remember the last time I checked, either yesterday or the day before, but there was no signs of life other than the fermenters. Today I checked and saw beautiful rapidly growing mycelium where I injected. Now I'm excited.


The new fermenting grain jar is going well and the mycelium hasn't slowed down at all, it's still munching the grains. Most of the grain is inside the foil but I put some outside for the mycelium to eat before it reaches inside the foil.

Weed seeds with a bit of weed holds perfect moisture content so much better than I would've imagined. I was thinking it would be too wet or too dry but it's perfect.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7710006#Post7710006

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8468503#8468503

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5809138#Post5809138

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8319995#8319995

Edited by InTheRainySeason (09/15/08 06:11 AM)


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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: InTheRainySeason]
    #8934665 - 09/15/08 05:20 PM (2 months, 18 days ago)

Recently I have watered about half of my P Cyan patch with AEM(diluted 1:100, about 20 liters in total for 50kg of beech chips (half the patch)) just to see what would happen. Next week I will try what would happen if a mushroom would fall in my kitchen bokashi bucket :wink:


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