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 ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
 
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 2,962
Last seen: 1 day, 10 minutes
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The critial factor slips the mind of the (un)questioning believer.
Satan's answers are just as true as God's, and when you acknowledge this they become the same.
GodSatan bless you! 
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
Stop knowing what you are and realize what you could be.
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Truthseeker316
Stranger
Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 101
Last seen: 17 days, 25 minutes
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Whoever said there are coins with Cesar on them- OK, I thought of putting a bunch of different historical figures in there but decided on Cesar because it was the same time period. I could have used anyone as an example, sorry I was used someone with a bit more evidence (coins) created by those who followed him than I mentioned.
And yes faith and spirituality are proof to me of God. But my own personal faith isn't gonna convince anyone on this forum of God. If faith was the only reason I had for believing then you guys woudln't even take me seriously. But because I have reasons that you can understand, we are having this discussion.
And I don't really get most of your points explosivemango. But God/Satan may have once been one in the same, but now are separated...some believe that. I don't know but I get to go to church now!!! TTYL
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,277
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 20 minutes
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Technically, religion belongs to religious myth, not fairytales or folklore. It is a matter of provincial versus global. It is also a matter of greater versus lesser archetypes of the collective unconscious. Myth manifests the most universal themes and images, follwed by folklore and then by group and individual dreams. An analogy would be that religious myth is like the Major Arcana of the Tarot deck while fairytals and folklore comprise the Minor Arcana, where Arcana means 'Mystery.'
Clearly, fairytales and folklore have loose boundaries, and whereas it may seem unkind to tell children about the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, they get over it and understand that those stories were for their pleasure, for the most part. I mean scaring kids with tales of Chupacabra to keep them in line is somewhat abusive. However, the real damage is teaching the Great Myths, religious myths as if they are historical truths. Continued belief well into adulthood has resulted in the fanaticism and hatred that we see at this moment in the 21st century! On the other hand, I am now old enough to see how kids I knew when I was a kid, or kids I had as students who are now adults, have fared without religious myth guiding their personal development. It is typical - the unconscious idolatrous pursuit of materiality and social status, which includes the 'trophy wife' or 'good catch' spouse (sex in the service of the ego).
Atheists (secular polytheists) make gods in the images of their own desires and sometimes pursue their gods with fanaticism - material acquisitions and sexual conquests. Their inner world is extremely impoverished and desparately try to fill it from the outer world, yet desire is never sated. The 'Hungry Ghost' condition in Tibetan Buddhism. Even 'getting religion,' whether fashionable Kabbalah, or fictional Scientology, from without, is more of the same condition and it doesn't work or transform anyone. Transformation emerges from within, coming from the Transcendental Source of our existence.
The Great Myths of religion, which embody themes of alienation (sin, ignorance, a fall) is counterbalanced with themes of restitution (salvation, illumination, enlightenment). Without the latter to bring consciousness of the duality, people one-sidedly and unconsciously identify with worldly desire as their sine qua non for existence. Alienation peaks and union with the Transcendental becomes impossible even with material opulence. A compulsive cigarette, drug, alcohol and cock imbibing Paris Hilton would be a paradigmatic illustration of this. Dionysian excess without Apollonian restraint is indicated in the myth of Dionysius who is dismembered by his followers. One can see similarly how Brittany Spears has been dismembered - psychologically fractured.
Instead of attempting to demean religion as fairytale, understand the importance of fairytales as archetypes of the collective unconscious. Archetypes (manifest in myths, fairytales, folklore and dreams) comprise the universal infrastructure of the psyche - even yours.
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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 anarKhan
fire-dancing guerilla
Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 116
Loc: Oregon
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Technically, religion belongs to religious myth, not fairytales or folklore. It is a matter of provincial versus global. It is also a matter of greater versus lesser archetypes of the collective unconscious. Myth manifests the most universal themes and images, follwed by folklore and then by group and individual dreams. An analogy would be that religious myth is like the Major Arcana of the Tarot deck while fairytals and folklore comprise the Minor Arcana, where Arcana means 'Mystery.'
Clearly, fairytales and folklore have loose boundaries, and whereas it may seem unkind to tell children about the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, they get over it and understand that those stories were for their pleasure, for the most part. I mean scaring kids with tales of Chupacabra to keep them in line is somewhat abusive. However, the real damage is teaching the Great Myths, religious myths as if they are historical truths. Continued belief well into adulthood has resulted in the fanaticism and hatred that we see at this moment in the 21st century! On the other hand, I am now old enough to see how kids I knew when I was a kid, or kids I had as students who are now adults, have fared without religious myth guiding their personal development. It is typical - the unconscious idolatrous pursuit of materiality and social status, which includes the 'trophy wife' or 'good catch' spouse (sex in the service of the ego).
Atheists (secular polytheists) make gods in the images of their own desires and sometimes pursue their gods with fanaticism - material acquisitions and sexual conquests. Their inner world is extremely impoverished and desparately try to fill it from the outer world, yet desire is never sated. The 'Hungry Ghost' condition in Tibetan Buddhism. Even 'getting religion,' whether fashionable Kabbalah, or fictional Scientology, from without, is more of the same condition and it doesn't work or transform anyone. Transformation emerges from within, coming from the Transcendental Source of our existence.
The Great Myths of religion, which embody themes of alienation (sin, ignorance, a fall) is counterbalanced with themes of restitution (salvation, illumination, enlightenment). Without the latter to bring consciousness of the duality, people one-sidedly and unconsciously identify with worldly desire as their sine qua non for existence. Alienation peaks and union with the Transcendental becomes impossible even with material opulence. A compulsive cigarette, drug, alcohol and cock imbibing Paris Hilton would be a paradigmatic illustration of this. Dionysian excess without Apollonian restraint is indicated in the myth of Dionysius who is dismembered by his followers. One can see similarly how Brittany Spears has been dismembered - psychologically fractured.
Instead of attempting to demean religion as fairytale, understand the importance of fairytales as archetypes of the collective unconscious. Archetypes (manifest in myths, fairytales, folklore and dreams) comprise the universal infrastructure of the psyche - even yours.
^ great post.
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NOT ALL THOSE WHO WANDER ARE LOST
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
Atheists (secular polytheists) make gods in the images of their own desires and sometimes pursue their gods with fanaticism - material acquisitions and sexual conquests. Their inner world is extremely impoverished and desparately try to fill it from the outer world, yet desire is never sated. The 'Hungry Ghost' condition in Tibetan Buddhism. Even 'getting religion,' whether fashionable Kabbalah, or fictional Scientology, from without, is more of the same condition and it doesn't work or transform anyone. Transformation emerges from within, coming from the Transcendental Source of our existence.
The Great Myths of religion, which embody themes of alienation (sin, ignorance, a fall) is counterbalanced with themes of restitution (salvation, illumination, enlightenment). Without the latter to bring consciousness of the duality, people one-sidedly and unconsciously identify with worldly desire as their sine qua non for existence.
Hmmm. so it's either faithful, fulfilled theism or faithless and empty atheism? Sounds like Excluded Middle to me. 
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 2,962
Last seen: 1 day, 10 minutes
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Quote:
Truthseeker316 said:
Whoever said there are coins with Cesar on them- OK, I thought of putting a bunch of different historical figures in there but decided on Cesar because it was the same time period. I could have used anyone as an example, sorry I was used someone with a bit more evidence (coins) created by those who followed him than I mentioned.
(Why) bother with evidence?
Your faith will prove itself.
Quote:
And yes faith and spirituality are proof to me of God.
And proof to me as well.
Quote:
But my own personal faith is(n't) gonna convince anyone on this forum of God.
It has convinced me.
Perhaps you are yet to convince yourself?
Quote:
(If) faith was the only reason I had for believing then you guys woudl(n't) even take me seriously.
I believe you.
Drop the (if) and the (not) and we can even be serious together.
Quote:
But because I have reasons that you can understand, we are having this discussion.
Let us see this truth together.
Quote:
And I do(n't) really get most of your points explosivemango.
You can (not) believe directly what I do (not) say directly.
Quote:
But God/Satan may have once been one in the same, but now are separated...some believe that. I don't know but I get to go to church now!!! TTYL
They are together in their separation.
I hope you enjoy your service!
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
Stop knowing what you are and realize what you could be.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,341
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 4 hours, 58 minutes
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Quote:
Truthseeker316 said:
Whoever said there are coins with Cesar on them- OK, I thought of putting a bunch of different historical figures in there but decided on Cesar because it was the same time period. I could have used anyone as an example, sorry I was used someone with a bit more evidence (coins) created by those who followed him than I mentioned.
That's cool, I don't doubt that Jesus was real. But I am 100% sure his mother wasn't a virgin.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,510
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 Re: Religion and other fairy tales [Re: zouden]
#8891397 - 09/07/08 03:19 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Abstinence... 99.9999% effective.
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we are born naked, wet, hungry, and torn from the woman we love. then things get worse.  
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,277
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: Religion and other fairy tales [Re: Veritas]
#8891642 - 09/07/08 04:02 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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"Hmmm. so it's either faithful, fulfilled theism or faithless and empty atheism? Sounds like Excluded Middle to me."
Not exactly. There are some pantheistic systems that I find appealing, particularly in Hinduism. The Bhagavad Gita, for example, speaks to the spiritual and material energies of God.
Most of the systems of thought that I find the most appealing are panentheistic in nature, Yogas, Neoplatonism, Kabbalism, my favorite mystics like Meister Eckhart and Jacob Boehme. Several prominent philosophers followed Boehme: Schelling, Fichte, Hegel, and at least one panentheistic theologian who I always thought was right on, Paul Tillich. I did like Kant even though he was a theist.
Then there are Process Theologians like Whitehead and Hartshorne, Hartshorne's students, Griffin and Cobb. They represent a school of theology composed of science and philosophy, and do not even regard themselves specifically as Christians, while deeply appreciating Christianity.
So, there are alternatives to straight up theism when it comes to the recognition of the Transcendental in the vehicles of religious myth. I was just being brief, for a change.
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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You seem to be asserting that a life without some version of the Transcendentalism must be shallow, materialistic & ultimately unfulfilling. This is the Excluded Middle to which I referred.
The remarks you've made comparing theists with atheists are not based in any reality which I've observed. Perhaps you've confused atheism with consumerism and lack of curiosity?
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,277
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 20 minutes
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 Re: Religion and other fairy tales [Re: Veritas]
#8892605 - 09/07/08 07:12 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Perhaps I have simply identified them as one.
The Transcendental is the Source of existence, at the Big Bang and presently (like the Creator and Preserver - Brahma and Vishhnu in Hindu thought). I seethe human race as divided between the materialists (Gnostic 'Hylics') and the Gnostic 'Psychics' and 'Pneumatics' on the other. The Hylic multitudes simply are asleep (as Gurdjieff also puts it) and have no awareness of the Source.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Or there IS no "Source," and nothing to "Transcend," and the so-called Gnostics are Fantasists.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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