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Offlinezouden
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: mofo]
    #8880458 - 09/05/08 01:26 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, being a psychedelic forum, but Rick Strassman author of "DMT: Spirit Molecule" found in his research that endogenous DMT is first released into the pineal gland at about day 49 of gestation.  The experience this has on the developing fetus is speculative of course, but Strassman certainly believes it to be a major psychedelic experience and the first experience in the human lifetime.  In fact, Strassman believes this to be the moment at which the spirit enters the body.




Not to get too offtopic, but endogenous DMT has no psychedelic effect - it's a modulator of anxiety.


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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8880707 - 09/05/08 04:56 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Do you have a source for the modulator of anxiety bit?  I thought we still didn't know what endogenous DMT is used for.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: deCypher]
    #8881246 - 09/05/08 08:55 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

There was a paper published fairly recently that described the location of the DMT receptor in the pons (and maybe the nucleus accumbens? I better find the paper).


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Offlinezouden
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8881266 - 09/05/08 09:00 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

I found the paper. And it's the amygdala, not the nucleus accumbens, which makes sense as the amygdala is the emotion centre (I should know this!)

Medical Hypotheses
Volume 64, Issue 5, 2005, Pages 930-937
doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2004.11.005
Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine
Michael S. Jacob and David E. Presti
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-3200, USA

Quote:

The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia. This hypothesis developed from comparisons of the blood and urine of schizophrenic and control subjects. However, much of this research proved inconclusive and conventional thinking has since held that trace levels of DMT, and other endogenous psychoactive tryptamines, are insignificant metabolic byproducts. The recent discovery of a G-protein-coupled, human trace amine receptor has triggered a reappraisal of the role of compounds present in limited concentrations in biological systems. Interestingly enough, DMT and other psychoactive tryptamine hallucinogens elicit a robust response at the trace amine receptor. While it is currently accepted that serotonin 5-HT2A receptors play a pivotal role in the activity of hallucinogenic/psychedelic compounds, we propose that the effects induced by exogenous DMT administration, especially at low doses, are due in part to activity at the trace amine receptor. Furthermore, we suggest that endogenous DMT interacts with the TA receptor to produce a calm and relaxed mental state, which may suppress, rather than promote, symptoms of psychosis. This hypothesis may help explain the inconsistency in the early analysis of endogenous DMT in humans. Finally, we propose that amphetamine action at the TA receptor may contribute to the calming effects of amphetamine and related drugs, especially at low doses.




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Offlineackack9000
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8881308 - 09/05/08 09:14 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

And we believe that this human life is lost... the world needs more humans just as much as I need children, or as much as I need shot in the back of the head.


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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8881479 - 09/05/08 10:05 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Very interesting, thanks!


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Offlinesealorcawhale
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: deCypher]
    #8884851 - 09/06/08 12:03 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Wow that is epic


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8885112 - 09/06/08 01:37 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I found the paper. And it's the amygdala, not the nucleus accumbens, which makes sense as the amygdala is the emotion centre (I should know this!)

Medical Hypotheses
Volume 64, Issue 5, 2005, Pages 930-937
doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2004.11.005
Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine
Michael S. Jacob and David E. Presti
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-3200, USA

Quote:

The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia. This hypothesis developed from comparisons of the blood and urine of schizophrenic and control subjects. However, much of this research proved inconclusive and conventional thinking has since held that trace levels of DMT, and other endogenous psychoactive tryptamines, are insignificant metabolic byproducts. The recent discovery of a G-protein-coupled, human trace amine receptor has triggered a reappraisal of the role of compounds present in limited concentrations in biological systems. Interestingly enough, DMT and other psychoactive tryptamine hallucinogens elicit a robust response at the trace amine receptor. While it is currently accepted that serotonin 5-HT2A receptors play a pivotal role in the activity of hallucinogenic/psychedelic compounds, we propose that the effects induced by exogenous DMT administration, especially at low doses, are due in part to activity at the trace amine receptor. Furthermore, we suggest that endogenous DMT interacts with the TA receptor to produce a calm and relaxed mental state, which may suppress, rather than promote, symptoms of psychosis. This hypothesis may help explain the inconsistency in the early analysis of endogenous DMT in humans. Finally, we propose that amphetamine action at the TA receptor may contribute to the calming effects of amphetamine and related drugs, especially at low doses.







That's just a hypothesis, hasn't been confirmed?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: learningtofly]
    #8885183 - 09/06/08 02:09 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Here's some tidbits from that article. If you're interested, I could upload the PDF.

Quote:

The potent hallucinogenic effects of pure DMT in humans were first reported by Szara [7] in 1956. Then, in 1965, DMT, tryptamine and 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (bufotenine) were reported as normal constituents of human urine and blood [8].




Quote:

An essential characteristic of DMT pharmacology also investigated by Strassman that differentiates it from many other psychedelic substances is that DMT does not appear to lead to tolerance in mammals. Absence of tolerance has been shown in rats, cats [42] and in humans [43]. This provides additional evidence that endogenous DMT may play a physiological role, especially if its mechanism requires consistent and repeated activity.




Quote:

DMT appears to have affinity for the TA system, which is a receptor system that is linked to the emotional centers of the body and shows possible connections to many psychiatric conditions. Thus, the DMT-TA hypothesis prompts a new interpretation of the presence of DMT in the fluid of schizophrenics. Perhaps, increased DMT production reflects a homeostatic response to calm or suppress psychotic activity, rather than exacerbate it. At low levels, DMT may be an endogenous anxiolytic, whereas higher, “unnatural” levels (such as those associated with psychedelic/hallucinogenic activity) produce extreme shifts in consciousness. This might explain the inconsistent reports of DMT’s presence in schizophrenic patients. The proposed DMT-TA hypothesis is also consistent with the observation of increased AADC activity and decreased MAO activity in schizophrenic patients, conceivably to produce more symptom-alleviating tryptamine or DMT. It is also known that the smoking of tobacco leads to decreased levels of MAO activity in schizophrenics [60], possibly producing increased levels of endogenous DMT and thereby contributing to the high prevalence of tobacco/nicotine use amongst this population. This DMT-TA hypothesis, offers a sensible explanation for the observation that INMT activity and thus DMT production increase during stress, although this needs to be more thoroughly examined in humans.




Quote:

Acknowledgements
We are grateful to Alexander Shulgin, Peyton Jacob III, and Matthew Baggott for helpful discussions and suggestions.




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Offlinethekwazz
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8885351 - 09/06/08 04:20 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

That was some interesting material zouden.


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Offlinetheshiz777
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: thekwazz]
    #8885826 - 09/06/08 09:23 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

I am a christian who is prolife.  i believe that a life is a life at conception.  Someone else may not believe this and that is fine.  As a christian it would be wrong for me or any other christian to enforce christian beliefs on anyone.  I do believe in telling people about Jesus and GOD but not forcing or beating it into anyone.

I feel that abortion is a sin, but I also believe that have the choice of abortion should be part of life.  I dont agree with it but the next person might.  I know GOD has his rules and hope for all of us, but I also know GOD gave us free will to travel our own paths and learn our individual lessons.  Ultimately GOD gave us free will so we can make our own choices.  He wants all of us to love him, but if you choose not to, or choose not to believe, then that is up to you, and you only.  If GOD wanted to force people into doing what he thinks is right then this would be a perfect world, but instead he gave us choices, mainly to see if we reject, or follow him.  As a prolifer I say let their be pro choice and let people travel their own paths.  Nobody in this world is the judge, so I say leave everything up to GOD.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: theshiz777]
    #8886043 - 09/06/08 10:13 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

If GOD wanted to force people into doing what he thinks is right then this would be a perfect world,




Or a nightmarish dictatorship. :shrug:

But for the record, I appreciate your "let there be pro-choice' attitude. I just wish all fundamentalist Christians shared your sentiment. There's nothing inherently wrong with a pro-life view itself, so long as it's personal and not political, so long as it doesn't involve impinging on the rights of others to choose for themselves, based on thier circumstances, needs, and particular ethical perspective.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8886073 - 09/06/08 10:18 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

There's a neatly phrased question we could ask Christians: do you believe that others have the right to sin? :strokebeard:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: zouden]
    #8886133 - 09/06/08 10:30 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

live and let sin? :smirk:


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8886209 - 09/06/08 10:45 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Is that perhaps more 'neat' phrasing than we want?
I must admit it is neat.

I believe the idea of sin is the only sin.

And I think it's a good idea if you want to make another an (un)seeing part of yourself. I want people to see that.

I got Him! Now He sin me! I (for)give you. For what I can(not) say.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: theshiz777]
    #8886321 - 09/06/08 11:05 AM (2 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

theshiz777 said:
I am a christian who is prolife.  i believe that a life is a life at conception.




You believe to be the creator of life.

Quote:

Someone else may (not) believe this and that is fine.




You see that others will be forced to hear your belief and you suggest (other)wise. You are wise indeed.

Quote:

As a christian it would be (wrong) for me or any other christian to enforce christian beliefs on anyone.  I do believe in telling people about Jesus and GOD but (not) forcing or beating it into anyone.




You believe you may hide your (wrong)doing in forcing your beliefs on others.

Fear (not) brother, you are right. (Not wrong).

You deny the fact that so many times have you beaten us into your (w)holy submission.

Quote:

I feel that abortion is a sin, but I also believe that have the choice of abortion should be part of life.  I dont agree with it but the next person might.




You believe you may incarcerate the aborters within your Satan, to only be forgiven by God.

Quote:

I know GOD has his rules and hope for all of us, but I also know GOD gave us free will to travel our own paths and learn our individual lessons.




You claim to be the God you act as but choose not to see yourself as.

Quote:

Ultimately GOD gave us free will so we can make our own choices.




Yes, ultimately we will recognize that every time we use His name we become Him.

Quote:

He wants all of us to love him, but if you choose not to, or choose not to believe, then that is up to you, and you only.  If GOD wanted to force people into doing what he thinks is right then this would be a perfect world, but instead he gave us choices, mainly to see if we reject, or follow him.




You deny the omnipotence of the omnipotent, serving your own small idea of God. The God that you know you can reveal yourself as, (un)seen.

Quote:

As a prolifer I say let their be pro choice and let people travel their own paths.  Nobody in this world is the judge, so I say leave everything up to GOD.




You recognize that everyone in the world is the judge and you close your eyes to this fact. You close your eyes to God as we look upon you.


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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8888763 - 09/06/08 10:32 PM (2 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:

Quote:

You believe to be the creator of life.




I believe to be a tool used by the creator of life to create life.


Quote:

You believe you may hide your (wrong)doing in forcing your beliefs on others




I will never force anything on anyone.  I will speak about the Lord to others in the same manner that you will speak of your beliefs to others.  How can wrong doing be hidden when it is evident everyone is a sinner.

Quote:

You believe you may incarcerate the aborters within your Satan, to only be forgiven by God.




I believe that what people do is between them and GOD.  And that we should all be there for eachother in times of need.



Quote:

You claim to be the God you act as but choose not to see yourself as.




I am no GOD, but a servant with a free will, and some sense of good and evil in a broken world.


Quote:

Yes, ultimately we will recognize that every time we use His name we become Him.




I recognize truth, and peace when I think of his name.



Quote:

You recognize that everyone in the world is the judge and you close your eyes to this fact. You close your eyes to God as we look upon you.




I believe that in a perfect world, untainted, and unbroken, we would follow GODS path that he has laid out for us.  But in our broken world we live in we tend to follow a broken path, following GODS ath as close as we can at best.  I would never reject GOD in the wake of any attack on my beliefs.

And please next time you quote me please do not put parenthesis where I clearly never put them.  I have no hidden meanings in anything I say. I mean what I say, and I truly believe what I say.

Peace be with you brother.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: theshiz777]
    #8889158 - 09/07/08 12:17 AM (2 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

I believe to be a tool used by the creator of life to create life.




And this is how you hide from yourself that you are the creator of the tool.

Quote:

I will never force anything on anyone.  I will speak about the Lord to others in the same manner that you will speak of your beliefs to others.  How can wrong doing be hidden when it is evident everyone is a sinner.





Your words are to be believed, and thus inevitably you force belief.

I force belief as well, and reveal the belief I force.

You are the one who has conceived us to be sinners, to be requisite of forgiveness. I admit to the evidence I forge.

Declaring sin is the only sin. There may be crime only perceived against man. The false seeing of God's opinion of sin is the violation of God. It is the seeing of what you know you can(not), the subliminal worship of Satan.

Quote:

I believe that what people do is between them and GOD.  And that we should all be there for eachother in times of need.




I as well.
I believe what each person does affects every person in the universe.

Quote:

I am no GOD, but a servant with a free will, and some sense of good and evil in a broken world.




You seek to have us believe the world as broken. You wear a mask named God over your self servitude so you may hide the true bearer of these intentions.

I believe the world is broken without each and every one of us knowing/believing/feeling whole;
Your self projection onto God, away from your honest sight, is an inhibition to this completion, (not) an asset.

Quote:

I recognize truth, and peace when I think of his name.




I as well.

Quote:

I believe that in a perfect world, untainted, and unbroken, we would follow GODS path that he has laid out for us.  But in our broken world we live in we tend to follow a broken path, following GODS ath as close as we can at best.  I would never reject GOD in the wake of any attack on my beliefs.




If I were to use parenthesis here it would be on the (un) from tainted and broken, and the (n) from ever. I would use these parenthesis to illustrate the subliminal Satan worship you do (not) necessarily recognize.

Pain has been used over the ages to force your eyes closed in the face of divine truth. I wish to help you distinguish the sight given to you by the God you follow from the Satan you follow (not). GodSatan is very hard to open your eyes to if you have lived in the pain of Christianity.

This apex of your argument reveals the perfect world you believe we live in, and the closed eyes upon it.

Quote:


And please next time you quote me please do not put parenthesis where I clearly never put them.  I have no hidden meanings in anything I say. I mean what I say, and I truly believe what I say.




(No) hidden meanings indeed. It is (not) a lie if it even fools ourself. It is natural to shield your eyes from a light too bright.

I have left the parenthesis out of the quotes you have written. I must still use them to illustrate what I see, so I may be honest with you.

Quote:

Peace be with you brother.




And you as well. :mushroom2:


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Know your source.

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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: theshiz777]
    #8891031 - 09/07/08 01:47 PM (2 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

theshiz777 said:
GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD.




QUIT YELLING AT ME. :argh:

If we left everything up to somebody who has never shown any proof of existence in thousands of years, we'd be in an even sorrier state than we are right now living by our own rules.

I'm not really sure why devout Christians would come to a drug forum, but that's just me. I would have felt entirely ashamed when I was a Christian.


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Re: You may (not) argue pro life [Re: thekwazz]
    #8970187 - 09/22/08 09:16 PM (2 months, 10 days ago)

I was pro life up until I was born!


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