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 no1joe
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 Microscope Q's
#8889546 - 09/07/08 02:22 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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im lookin at a inexpensive stereo microscope to look at petri dishes of mycellium on agar and had some q's
is a halogen lighting system ok or does it have to be led?
i believe heat is a issue on one of them?
is it simple to replace a halogen bulb with a led?
how much working space will i need?
is multiple objectives desireable?
anythin else i should look for?
and finally any recommended models?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: no1joe]
#8890621 - 09/07/08 12:06 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Use LED lights because halogen will dry out and kill the mycelium in a matter of minutes(or less). If you're looking through the lid of a petri dish, the heat from a halogen will fog up the plastic in about ten seconds and you then can't see anything.
I have the Z2 inspector trinocular with table base boom stand, and CCD tube for a 4 meg video camera. It can be seen in use in the spore printing and syringe making chapter of the Let's grow Mushrooms DVD.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
Mark Twain, Woody Allen, Groucho Marx, and anyone else who wishes to claim credit for the quote.
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piracetam
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nice
I'm considering getting an Omano OM88T
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benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8891044 - 09/07/08 01:52 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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A stereo microscope is for looking down on objects. The light and lens are on the same side. With a compound microscope, the light and objectives are on opposite sides of the sample, thus you see the light that shines through the object, rather than the light that reflects back from it, as with a stereo or stereo zoom microscope. The picture on the left below of a Pan stipticus primordia was taken through the zoom microscope I linked to above. The primordia was about 1mm in width. The picture on the right of a strand of dikaryotic mycelium was taken with the same camera, but through a compound light microscope at 1000X with an oil immersion lens. This is the type of microscope you want if you intend to study cell structure, count nuclei, look for clamp connections, etc.
RR
 
--------------------
www.mushroomvideos.com
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
Mark Twain, Woody Allen, Groucho Marx, and anyone else who wishes to claim credit for the quote.
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BlimeyGrimey
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Is that a "trikaryotic" cell I see in that 2nd pic?
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Confirmed:
Psilocybe stuntzii
Psilocybe cyanescens
Psilocybe guilartensis
Panaeolus olivaceus
Unknown:
Washington Psilocybe species
Washington Panaeolus species
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RogerRabbit
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Yes. There's a cell in that picture with three nuclei, and the one on the far right appears to have four. I suspect that cell was just getting ready to divide as the picture was taken.
RR
--------------------
www.mushroomvideos.com
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
Mark Twain, Woody Allen, Groucho Marx, and anyone else who wishes to claim credit for the quote.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: no1joe]
#8892905 - 09/07/08 08:04 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
is a halogen lighting system ok or does it have to be led?
The document I just read says that halogen is better.
Quote:
i believe heat is a issue on one of them?
I have only used halogen and it is definitely hotter. The heat from the bulb makes samples dry out after about 20 minutes, even less for crush mounts. So if you step out for a minute and come back all your cool cystidia and spores are dried up in little bunches and no amount of water will make it ok again.
Its only a problem if you run out of the room for a half hour and leave the scope on. Of course I do that all the time. If you are using the scope and it starts to dry out you can add more water before everything starts sticking together.
Quote:
is it simple to replace a halogen bulb with a led?
Great question I wish I knew.
A one watt (or 5 watt) luxeon might work really well if it is positioned in the right place.
Quote:
how much working space will i need?
Maybe 4 square feet.
Quote:
is multiple objectives desireable?
Yea you want the low power ones and also the 100x oil immersion objective.
Quote:
anythin else i should look for?
Get a trinocular if you want to camera on it. Even if you dont need to take pictures its nice to be able to sit back in your chair and look at the camera / monitor instead of staring into the eyepeice all the time.
For your regular scope the amscopes are the best I have seen for the price.
http://www.amscope.com/Trinocular.html
or
http://www.amscope.com/Binocular.html
Also there have been two threads here recently that have a lot of really good microscope info in them.
They are:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8844876
and
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8016240
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piracetam
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then again, it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider one of the big three (Nikon, Olympus, or Leica), if budget allows. their products tend to be modular/easily upgradable, and have good resale value.
but in the end, it really all comes down to what you want to do with it.
I'm looking to purchase one for crystal observation, bacterial morphology, and mold study. I've actually changed my mind on the Omano, after seeing some comparably priced (though used) Leica models
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benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8901630 - 09/09/08 11:29 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Hey,
I would suggest halogen, especially if you want to study bacteria and microbes, along with mycelium, etc. Though it is hotter, I know many, many microscopyists and microbiologists who use, prefer and recommend halogen.
As far as I know you can't switch LED to halogen but you should ask Tim Wilson about that. ( http://www.microbeorganics.com )
As far as models I would definitely go with the Lecia, try to get model "CME" (about $1,400 new). Though realize it does not have "infinity corrected" optical lens. This is the main microscope suggested by Dr. Elaine Ingham and what she teaches her microscopy classes with. She also used to (maybe still?) recommended "Alexis" microscopes, "J-model" (about $400.00 new) for a good 'starter' scope.
Though IMO and that of Tim Wilson, the Meiji I mentioned in the other thread is far superior but also much more expensive.
Also, if you can afford phase-contrast that's what you want, Brightfield is fine but you'll be HAPPY you have phase-contrast. I don't think you can get phase-contrast from the Alexis but I'm not sure.
Objectives = 20-30 is good, but like was mentioned, a 100x oil is nice too. You should read the "Microscope Advisory" (PDF) my buddy Tim Wilson wrote, it will help you understand the issues involved.
HTH 
Edited by quickpick (09/09/08 11:32 AM)
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piracetam
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901676 - 09/09/08 11:40 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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regarding the halogen bulb: some vendors (i.e. microscope.com) offer an LED option on some of their scopes, if you don't want to go with a halogen bulb.
though many of the better microscopes have variable intensity knobs anyway.
the CME is great, used one at school before... on a budget, the ATC-2000 is pretty good too. like I mentioned, these bad boys are modular; you can always get infinity-corrected/plan objectives later.
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benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
Edited by piracetam (09/09/08 12:45 PM)
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901684 - 09/09/08 11:42 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Oh,
And if anyone wants a GREAT DVD 'how-to' for using a microscope, view and working with samples, microbes (heavy on microbes), and amature microscopyist training Tim Wilson's DVD is EXCELLENT and the only thing I suggest.
The DVD is a GREAT companion to RR's video series, Tim and Roger remind me a lot of each other.
I know a few microscopyists who suggest Tim's DVD over Dr. Ingham's classes! DVD = $50.00 Class = $hundreds
The main benefit to the DVD is you can re-watch it, rewind, pause, etc. Every person who has a microscope and is not trained should buy Tim's DVD IMVHO.
DVD
HTH
RR: I hope this post doesn't break some rules of this site, I don't think it does, I'm only trying to help. And NO, I'm not Tim 
Edited by quickpick (09/09/08 11:46 AM)
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901712 - 09/09/08 11:49 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Oh yea,
I got a 10% discount on my microscope when I mentioed Tim Wilon's name to "Jason" who is a rep at ( http://www.professionalmicroscopes.com ; ). You can get the Meiji and many other great makes of microscopes from Jason with a 10% discount is nice!
Hey PT,
Yea that's a good point about variable intensity of halgen.
HTH
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901753 - 09/09/08 11:58 AM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Hey PT,
I'm pretty sure the infinity-correct lens upgraded in a Lecia, when done in a modular fashion is expensive, at least a few hundred dollars according to Tim if I remember correctly. I can dig up an email from him where we were discussing the benefits of infinity-correct lenses later if you'd like me to.
HTH
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piracetam
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901796 - 09/09/08 12:08 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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no need, I believe you.
you're right, it would be more expensive overall. it's one of those things where a configured item may be a bit cheaper than a basic one that's eventually upgraded. remember though, we're considering an 'inexpensive' microscope, one for folks (myself included) who're on a budget, but can be upgraded later if desired.
the way I see it (maybe I'm being a bit presumptuous), some of the cheaper models (such as some amscopes and omanos) are for the casual hobbyist. a modular upright from one of the big three is more of an investment, a reason I changed my mind.
to my understanding, Meiji is a great brand too.
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benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
Edited by piracetam (09/09/08 12:15 PM)
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8901844 - 09/09/08 12:21 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Hey,
I didn't mean to disagree with you I just meant I could post some info on infinity-corrected lens if you'd like me to.
Yea, I try to keep in mind the thread topic: inexpensive. That's why I suggested the Alexis which is inexpensive. The discount from Jason can help a bit, a 10% discount on a $500 dollar scope is nice.
I mentioned in the other thread that Tim is a great guy to talk to about used scopes, on his site or some resources to good, refurbished/used microscope site. He's in the process of writing a how-to for refurbishing scopes so that will make things even less expensive
HTH
Edited by quickpick (09/09/08 02:32 PM)
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piracetam
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: quickpick]
#8901884 - 09/09/08 12:30 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
quickpick said: He's in the process of writing a how-to for refurbishing scopes so that will make things even less expensive
sounds awesome; that would really come in handy for people who purchase a good used scope.
that site looks pretty decent; here's a good page on Meijis for the budget-minded http://www.professionalmicroscopes.com/TM200_microscope_meiji.html
i wonder if the heads can be switched over to binoc/trinoc
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benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8902535 - 09/09/08 02:54 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Hey PT,
Nice link, thanks! I missed it on the site, and with a 10% discount from Jason it even less expensive. And as far as I know ALL Meiji have infinity-corrected lens by default
To people interested in a good yet inexpensive base model scope:
I would suggest the series 'piracetam' suggested: "Meiji TM" and I'd suggest the model "204" which is $505.00, or about $450 with the 10% "Tim" discount That scope is inclined, has 10x eyepiece (kind small but usable, eye fatigue possible), 10x and S40x objectives, the condenser is a disk (and kinda-small) and it has a 20w tungsten light source (incandescent bulb I think, fewer worries of heat)...very nice for $450 or so!
Quote:
i wonder if the heads can be switched over to binoc/trinoc
I'm pretty sure they can be switched but you may want to shoot Tim and email and ask his opinion. Or ask Jason at that site for his opinion, but Tim is better informed then Jason.
Thanks for your input
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8903229 - 09/09/08 05:26 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
I'm looking to purchase one for crystal observation, bacterial morphology, and mold study.
Perhaps I'm misreading your intentions, but it sounds like you're talking about two different scopes. To look at crystals, you'll want a stereo scope as mentioned in the original post. They're for looking at the light that is reflected off an object, such as this picture of tiny pieces of vermiculite and perlite next to each other, with a dime for size reference. I had it zoomed all the way out for this picture to the minimum magnification, which is .65X plus the 10X of the eyepieces for 6.5X. The picture on the right is of a sporulating sample of trichoderma mycelium on a petri dish. The only way to get that picture was with LED lighting, because it was through the lid of the petri dish, and had I been using a hot lamp, it would have fogged up before I could have gotten the focus set.
 
For looking at bacteria, or mold or mushroom mycelium cell structure, you'll need a compound microscope. They're not interchangeable. If heat isn't an issue, halogen is a lot cheaper than a good LED light ring. I have both, but never seem to get the halogen out anymore.
However, if you want to make a wet slide, and then watch, photograph, or video spores germinating and other cool stuff, you'll want to pony up the dough for an adjustable LED light ring, which can get pretty spendy. My halogen lamp gets so hot after three or four minutes, that anything on the stage is cooking. Perhaps the best of both worlds is an external halogen light, with fiber optic delivery tubes to your stage. That's on my xmas wish list I'll be giving mrs rabbit this year. Hope this helps.
RR
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piracetam
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*edit*
you're right
i actually have a cheapy 100X mic for examining crystals, i'd need a compound for bacterial cell study.
i believe a dark field polarized mic would work for observing crystals as well
a quick search gave me this article, of modding a brightfield (light mic) into a darkfield mic
http://www.wsu.edu/~omoto/papers/darkfield.html
--------------------
benzyme of the Nexus
old-skool migrant bee
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
Edited by piracetam (09/09/08 06:05 PM)
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quickpick
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Re: Microscope Q's [Re: piracetam]
#8903478 - 09/09/08 06:13 PM (2 months, 24 days ago) |
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RR,
Thanks, nice info
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