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I think the type of substrate used can have as much influence on potency as anything. I think the more nutritious materials like HPoo result it more potency. I have also had excellent results with High Mountain Compost.
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I think the deal is that genetics dictate how much of the actives the mushroom will produce. But those actives need to be rendered from the substrate so if the substrate is deficient then the potency will be bunk even with good genetics.
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-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Quote: Rahz said: Just curious if anyone knows of parameters that affect potency. (Genetics, substrate, and to an extent, obviously, environment. If you grow them terribly, the first two wont be of much help.
Shrooms grown at 72 -vs- grown at 90? Fruiting or incubation? For fruiting. Use the standard around 70. For incubation NEVER go up around 90. Your mycelium can die, and surely will die as you approach numbers like 100 without a doubt. Remember, inside the jars, especially after the mycelium starts to process nutes and expand, it throws off it's own heat. The temp inside the jar will be above the outside temp. Overkill often results in failures. The opposite, with proper moisture content, quick colonization. Low FAE -vs- high FAE? Former bad, unless you have double tubs etc. The latter is great. Again, an enviromental factor that's important. filtered air -vs- unfiltered? Cleaner=Better But it wont up your potency. Maybe just maybe, certain "dirty" things microbes etc COULD have negative effects. But we are getting really anal at that point. If you don't have contams, great. Without some lab experiments, I doubt someone could answer that other then to say, little if anything at all. And most likely no effect. But it can prevent contams. Which will spoil everything.
It's really about genetics and substrate, for the most part. And as long as your environment isn't terrible. Those are the factors that will determine potency. And those claiming it's one or the other in this thread are simply wrong. Plain and simple. Too say one or the other neglects to mention the complex relationship between genetics AND substrate. Example: Think it's just genetics? Well then I suppose I'll let you select the genetics, and I'll grow with a "poo pie". And you can use a brick. Or, not a good one. You use a rice cake. And I'll use compost and straw. It's never just one or the other. But certain batches will be stronger then others. Clone one, expand the tissue multiple times. And then fruit it on a high potency sub like hose poo.
Have fun!
EDIT:
Quote: deathw said: I could have sworn that rr posted about this one and that potency has to do with strain not substrate but don't quote me on him
I find it surprising, and doubtful, that RR would claim it's just one factor. Please find his quote on the matter ASAP. Thanks.
Quote: Krackers said: I was almost certain that (on very good authority) genetics, exclusively, determine potency while all else simply affects yield...
same goes for me...i used to think that potency was determined by the nutes in the substrate and that hpoo created stronger fruits than brf cakes but i was wrong.
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Quote: Psilocybeingzz said: I find it surprising, and doubtful, that RR would claim it's just one factor. Please find his quote on the matter ASAP. Thanks.
Quote: RogerRabbit said: This subject has been written on extensively. The search feature here is your friend. Potency is genetic. Build your substrates with the food fungi needs, and leave the potency to the mycelium. RR
Quote: RogerRabbit said: Agreed. Like many growers, at one time I set out in the search of the perfect substrate. The tryptamine/phan threads have been around for a long time, so of course I also included a few substrate materials high in those, such as seaweed. Then, N became the all important nutrient. I tried horse manure, chicken manure, cow manure, worm castings, etc., and the results were always the same. Extremely potent mushrooms came from good isolates whether it was on plain straw, or horse manure or compost. It didn't matter if coffee was added, or worm castings, anything. At the same time, performance from multispore inoculations were all over the scale every grow.
I've honestly never found a substrate additive that increases potency. If one is out there, it's yet to be found. RR
...and one more...
Quote: RogerRabbit said: The most important factor for potency is genetics. With multi-spore inoculation, it's a roll of the dice. BRF cakes are more nutritious than any other method, by the way. If anyone doubts that, try making a 1/2 pint horse manure cake and see what happens.
Substrates such as horse/cow manure, and coir, worm castings, straw, etc., are bulk substates, which means they need to be used in large amounts to be of much benefit. They can greatly expand the size of your crop when you spawn brf cakes or grains into ten to twenty times as much straw, but they don't impact potency. If there was a single substrate that would make your mushies more potent, don't you think the experienced growers would be pointing you to it?
We recommend horse manure because it has a good texture and can be used by itself with excellent results. The same holds true for straw. Coir and worm castings benefit from the addition of a bit of vermiculite to break them up and coffee grinds of course will help any substrate to perform better. However, they affect the size of the fruits and total yield, not potency.
If you want consistant potency, you'll want to learn strain isolation on agar so you can capture the specific genetics you want, and grow it time and time again, rather than depending on the roll of the dice with multispore inoculation. RR
when spores germinate a thread like apendage pokes out. when one of these crosses with another from another spore dna is shared. this crossing or mating of hyphae is called a substrain. there are any substrains at the start of a multispore grow. each substrain can and does have different potencys. as these matings continue, the dna of potent substrains and weak substrains are diluted or mixed into the mycelium network. by the end of the grow only severl or a small handfull of substrains remain. its only luck if you end up with potency. one cake from the same syringe can be weaker than another cake because a weaker substrain became dominate. substrate and nutes just determin the size and vigor of fruits. if you are looking for more consistant potency, look up "strain isolation". its a method of isolating these substrains> then fruiting a hand full to test batches of isolates for potency. then you can keep that vigorus potent culture for all your future grows.
Quote: Rahz said: Just curious if anyone knows of parameters that affect potency. (Genetics, substrate, and to an extent, obviously, environment. If you grow them terribly, the first two wont be of much help.
Shrooms grown at 72 -vs- grown at 90? Fruiting or incubation? For fruiting. Use the standard around 70. For incubation NEVER go up around 90. Your mycelium can die, and surely will die as you approach numbers like 100 without a doubt. Remember, inside the jars, especially after the mycelium starts to process nutes and expand, it throws off it's own heat. The temp inside the jar will be above the outside temp. Overkill often results in failures. The opposite, with proper moisture content, quick colonization. Low FAE -vs- high FAE? Former bad, unless you have double tubs etc. The latter is great. Again, an enviromental factor that's important. filtered air -vs- unfiltered? Cleaner=Better But it wont up your potency. Maybe just maybe, certain "dirty" things microbes etc COULD have negative effects. But we are getting really anal at that point. If you don't have contams, great. Without some lab experiments, I doubt someone could answer that other then to say, little if anything at all. And most likely no effect. But it can prevent contams. Which will spoil everything.
It's really about genetics and substrate, for the most part. And as long as your environment isn't terrible. Those are the factors that will determine potency. And those claiming it's one or the other in this thread are simply wrong. Plain and simple. Too say one or the other neglects to mention the complex relationship between genetics AND substrate. Example: Think it's just genetics? Well then I suppose I'll let you select the genetics, and I'll grow with a "poo pie". And you can use a brick. Or, not a good one. You use a rice cake. And I'll use compost and straw. It's never just one or the other. But certain batches will be stronger then others. Clone one, expand the tissue multiple times. And then fruit it on a high potency sub like hose poo.
Have fun!
EDIT:
Quote: deathw said: I could have sworn that rr posted about this one and that potency has to do with strain not substrate but don't quote me on him
I find it surprising, and doubtful, that RR would claim it's just one factor. Please find his quote on the matter ASAP. Thanks.
Quote: *Nitrogen is for plants. Mushrooms eat their food. I speculate in a few years, you won't ever even hear the term 'nitrogen' in relation to fungi. Potency isn't related to substrate, so you can add all the junk you want and it won't make them more potent. You'll want to isolate for a strain on agar that is more potent, and then save it in master slants. MUSHROOMS
AND
Quote: *Strain is irrelevant in mushrooms, unlike in mj cultivation where it's everything. A cube IS a cube. The long-time growers know this, thus the disreputable spore sellers constantly invent new names to stamp on the same old strains that have been around for years. Pick a strain from a shroomery vendor for your microscopy study. Sporeprints easily slide into a regular mail envelope. Cubes are cubes, and no named strain produces faster, more rhizomorphic, more potent, blah, blah, than any other on a continuing basis. Strain questions need to be in the strain thread at the top of the page please. STRAIN
.
Peace, Hope this helps.
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Well obviously a cube to cube pretty much. The "difference" is pretty much nil potency wise. And the word strain, doesn't even apply with mushrooms. But I will say for example... cubes, VS , cyans, there is a difference in potency.
And of course you can select great cube isolates, but does this mean the sub makes no difference? Of course it does.
Anyone who claims horse poo fruits are not stronger then BRF cakes is loopy IMO.
So RR quotes aside. I stand by everything I said. Substrate, and genetics both play a role.
EDIT:
Quote: If you want consistant potency, you'll want to learn strain isolation on agar so you can capture the specific genetics you want, and grow it time and time again, rather than depending on the roll of the dice with multispore inoculation.
Right. And if I had isolated something, and had two options, BRF cakes, or poo. IMO the poo would produce stronger fruits.
Quote: RogerRabbit said: The most important factor for potency is genetics. With multi-spore inoculation, it's a roll of the dice. BRF cakes are more nutritious than any other method, by the way. If anyone doubts that, try making a 1/2 pint horse manure cake and see what happens.
I'll stick with BRF cakes for now
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