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 AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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 A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder?
#8817516 - 08/23/08 07:32 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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The earlier question about a fruiting hormone for mushrooms got me thinking. Has anyone tried using ethylene, chemical formula H2C=CH2? Ethylene is a plant hormone that bromeliad growers use it to initiate blooming. The more interesting thing about ethylene is that it is clearly a combustion by product. It is definitely produced in large amounts by forest fires!!! Can you see where Im going with line of thinking? If morels are found in abundance in the scorched regions of a forest, this could be one of the fruiting triggers.
The reason why this might have been over looked as a trigger is because ehtylene is a gas at room temperature. Its not something that could be poured into a spawn bag. The morel culture literally has to be fumigated with it. However, its not difficult to produce either. A smokey gas stove produces lots of it.
This is exciting. I cant wait to try it out.
Any molecular biologists out there? Let me know what you think.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
Edited by AdoreChampignons (08/23/08 08:05 PM)
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 mbrown3391
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 Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8817679 - 08/23/08 08:28 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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This is exactly the hormone that i was thinking of in my earlier post. I dont know if this helps, but in the case of bromeliads, Acetylene gas can also be used to induce fruiting. Acetylene gas has the convenient property of being the gaseous product of calcium carbide (a relatively cheap salt) and water. Im not sure how that fits into your theory however.
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: mbrown3391]
#8817748 - 08/23/08 08:50 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Well..., acetylene is similar but different. Acetylene is an alkyne with a of formula of HC triple bond CH. Ethylene is an alkene, H2C double bond CH2. They're similar but chemically very different. However, I'm sure that acetylene is also made during combustion but at a smaller quantity.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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AdoreChampignons
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Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8818034 - 08/23/08 10:15 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Hmmmm..., I just was thinking. Why not try both out? Why not try fumigating a morel culture in both acetylene and ethylene gas? One could also try out a series of triggers that simulates the seasonal events in a forest.
Winter - chilling, cold water dunks
Spring - warming, drier
Summer - warmer, drier, exposure to free carbon, ethylene, acetylene, rise in Ph
Autumn - cooler, wetter
Result, Fruiting induced?
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
 
Registered: 05/12/06
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Last seen: 3 days, 20 hours
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Quote:
AdoreChampignons said:
The earlier question about a fruiting hormone for mushrooms got me thinking. Has anyone tried using ethylene, chemical formula H2C=CH2? Ethylene is a plant hormone that bromeliad growers use it to initiate blooming. The more interesting thing about ethylene is that it is clearly a combustion by product. It is definitely produced in large amounts by forest fires!!! Can you see where Im going with line of thinking? If morels are found in abundance in the scorched regions of a forest, this could be one of the fruiting triggers.
The reason why this might have been over looked as a trigger is because ehtylene is a gas at room temperature. Its not something that could be poured into a spawn bag. The morel culture literally has to be fumigated with it. However, its not difficult to produce either. A smokey gas stove produces lots of it.
This is exciting. I cant wait to try it out.
Any molecular biologists out there? Let me know what you think.
Well I have a pyrex bowl with a large primordium or sclerotium that somehow happened on agar that remained sealed for over a year. It is still the size of a dime and spherical. I did notice specks of discoloration in a few dimples that are on it. Maybe I can place the bowl in a tupperware container unsealed with a banana peel and see if it changes things.
Recently I put the bowl back into refrigeration to see if it stimulates it to grow larger.
http://www.cascademyco.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4186#4186
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MycoAu
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: AcidHorse]
#8830369 - 08/26/08 11:46 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Acetylene is easily obtained in tanks that can be used with a pressure regulator and an in-line air filter to give a sterile stream of acetylene that could be pumped into the growing area. Because of its incredibly powerful explosive properties, I don't recommend this. Ethylene can be used in a like manner and is probably less dangerous, but still not a healthy material if used improperly. Please utilize the proper tools and training for handling both of these gases if you choose to experiment with them.
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AcidHorse
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: MycoAu]
#8836698 - 08/27/08 03:48 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said:
Acetylene is easily obtained in tanks that can be used with a pressure regulator and an in-line air filter to give a sterile stream of acetylene that could be pumped into the growing area. Because of its incredibly powerful explosive properties, I don't recommend this. Ethylene can be used in a like manner and is probably less dangerous, but still not a healthy material if used improperly. Please utilize the proper tools and training for handling both of these gases if you choose to experiment with them.
I don't plan on experimenting with these gases. Because morels don't need fires to fruit.
They fruit naturally and ethylene would not be present in the early spring under the leaves.
Basically its a far leap to conclude that it is ethylene or acetylene.
If anything I would look into carbonic acid before those gases. It is stable at cool temps.
Or even glycerol, because its melting point is 64.4°F or 18°C. Look familiar?
Morels store nutrients in the sclerotium as triglycerides.
Simple fats and oils are esters of fatty acids and alcohols such as glycerol.
Triglycerides are esters of glycerol.
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Edited by AcidHorse (08/27/08 04:33 PM)
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asci
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: AcidHorse]
#8837457 - 08/27/08 06:12 PM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
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i agree with acidhorse, i would look closer at the metabolism of morchella species along with environmental factors and possible micro floral succession that precedes the morel fruit formation. that would be some where to start. good luck with your experiments!
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 alkylbenzene23
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: asci]
#8906916 - 09/10/08 12:57 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I was about to say... Acetylene, BAD idea to just pump into a fruiting chamber. If it were to detonate, the explosion could easily kill you!
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8910338 - 09/11/08 12:13 AM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:
I was about to say... Acetylene, BAD idea to just pump into a fruiting chamber. If it were to detonate, the explosion could easily kill you!
How very true. However, hormones are often used in very small quantities measured in parts per million. That is why hormones are considered very powerful molecules. Just of few of them can trigger incredible physiological as well as physical changes. The normal hormonal quantities usually found in humans are so small that for years they could only theorize their existence. They could never find them. It was only after they developed more sophisticated techniques of probing samples at the level of parts per million were they able to finally confirm the existence of hormones.
While plants are not like men, plant hormones too are used in minuscule quantities of parts per million. Therefore, if you want to try out the experiment and fumigate your morel mycelium with ethylene or acetylene gas, it's fairly safe. You really don't need a lot, probably much less than a couple mililiters.
I read in one plant book that the author triggered his bromeliads to bloom with ethylene gas released from a ripening piece of an apple. He literally put a plastic bag over his bromeliad and placed an apple slice in it to cause his plant to bloom. Does that make sense? If ethylene is used to ripen fruit, fruits also produce and naturally release ethylene gas. I don't mean to sound too facetious, but I don't think that a ripening piece of apple, even if it's sitting next to an open flame, would be at hazard of exploding. While ethylene gas may be present, the concentration is so low that it cannot ignite.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
Edited by AdoreChampignons (09/11/08 07:16 AM)
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alkylbenzene23
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8912081 - 09/11/08 11:37 AM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Then it sounds like people are better off using a solid-liquid gas reaction vessel (easy to make, and used to produce small to medium/low quantities of gasses) or a natural reaction like your example for production. However, I do not think morel's have a fruiting hormone. In the wild the myc. has a symbiotic relationship with a tree's rootsystem. There is an element that is missing from that relationship that I believe will cause morels to fruit. Then again I'm still as green as can be.
If only I could get a sample of colonized root analyzed.
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If you try to lick your cat while tripping, and they bite you, are you even?
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AcidHorse
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8914471 - 09/11/08 07:07 PM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:
Then it sounds like people are better off using a solid-liquid gas reaction vessel (easy to make, and used to produce small to medium/low quantities of gasses) or a natural reaction like your example for production. However, I do not think morel's have a fruiting hormone. In the wild the myc. has a symbiotic relationship with a tree's rootsystem. There is an element that is missing from that relationship that I believe will cause morels to fruit. Then again I'm still as green as can be.
If only I could get a sample of colonized root analyzed.
Morel fruiting in my pyrex bowl.
Fail to see tree, due to the lack of it.
Fail to see tree in barbecue experiment that Volk conducted, that produced morels.
If they get anything its facultatively.
If its there they'll use it.
If its a small plant they'll use it.
I think people are assuming this relationship because of the pine forest fires.
But there is no mention at what altitude the fires occurred. And morels at higher altitudes could have easily been sporulating in a cool moist high elevation than a dry parched lower elevation.
Once the fires dissipated, the spores may have eventually landed on soil that was saturated with pine sap and pine oil that dripped from the burning trees.
Once they were established they utilized all the nutrients from those "fatty acids and oils" and produced a motherload.
NOT to say this is how it happens but its possible.
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AdoreChampignons
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Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8914929 - 09/11/08 08:19 PM (2 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:...However, I do not think morel's have a fruiting hormone. In the wild the myc. has a symbiotic relationship with a tree's rootsystem. There is an element that is missing from that relationship that I believe will cause morels to fruit...
You may be right. Morels have long puzzled expert growers. However, there's a lot of bright members though in this on line group. I'm sure some day real soon one of us will stumble upon the secret to a consistent fruiting trigger.
Mycophilic One
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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alkylbenzene23
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Re: A Fruiting Hormone For Morels? I wonder? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8932245 - 09/15/08 08:36 AM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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Just because they will fruit without something doesn't mean they will do it well, mushrooms are adaptable, just like everything else.
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If you try to lick your cat while tripping, and they bite you, are you even?
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