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 AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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 Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes?
#8818520 - 08/24/08 12:34 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I was wondering, to keep spores or mycelium suspended in a syringe, has anyone ever added polysorbate 80 to their spore water? I know that polysorbate 80 is incredibly safe. It's so safe they put it in everything. They put it in ice cream to keep milk fats suspended and even in intravenous solutions to keep components from settling out. The concentration that is used is also quite low, somewhere below one quarter of one percent by weight. It's also autoclavable.
Comments anyone?
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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 quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
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 Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8818540 - 08/24/08 12:48 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Hey,
I'm not sure about that, I have doubts it's good for spores, mycelium in LC, etc. You want to try and stay away from non-natural matter, organic natural matter is best IMO. I would do a lot of research before you use it. But IMVHO there is a better solution anyway 
You should look at yucca extract, when a preservative is not included it is not only a non-ionic spreader/sticker surfactant but it also feeds mycelium too
There is an inexpensive kind and it's OMRI, it's called "Ag-Aide 50", you can read about it in this thread I wrote a few days ago:
Surfactant which promotes fungals: Yucca (to replace Jet Dry??)
Also, if you use casing it's probably a good idea add surfactant to the casing (via water) to allow easy hydration and re-hydration, especially with peat. I am also going to use it when soaking WBS and rye berries, along with when moistening my H.poo bulk sub.
HTH, and hope you havening a nice day!
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: quickpick]
#8822199 - 08/24/08 08:57 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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The yucca product you mentioned sounds promising. If it keeps the spores in suspension and feeds them, it sounds like a marriage made in heaven. However, in my case, at times I find that I may not always be able to inoculate the mushroom media as soon as the spore syringe is made. Therefore, if the spores are not only mixed with water but also exposed to a food source while in the syringe, they'll actually start germinating and growing while sitting in the syringe.
For myself, I'm trying to develop a better suspension medium. Water alone is adequate. However, more often than not, I find that the spores tend to clump or the mycelia tends to clump in the watery mixture. It doesn't cause the syringe to clog. It just makes for spotty inoculation results. Therefore, I'm researching the possibility of using a combination of polysorbate 80 and methyl cellulose as a suspension medium for spores or mycelium. Both compounds exhibit excellent thermal stability, very innocuous, not prone to fungal degradation, and can be found in a number of food items we eat daily.
I already picked up the compounds. They're relatively cheap. One could pick up methyl cellulose for pennies at an art supply store as an acid-free reversible adhesive for mounting high-priced artwork. Polysorbate 80 can be bought anywhere, even on Ebay.
I'll post my results when I can get around to making my spore syringes again.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8822637 - 08/24/08 11:05 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Hey buddy,
In that case I would research the effects of it upon microbes before I used it. Other commercial options of surfactants which won't feed the spores/mycelia could be "Mega Wet", and chemical surfactants. But as you mentioned, if you don't really need it I wouldn't use it unless I could find some research which proves it won't hurt the spores/mycelia.
Quote:
I find that the spores tend to clump or the mycelia tends to clump in the watery mixture. It doesn't cause the syringe to clog.
Are you referring to an LC? If so Ag-Aide 50 yucca I mentioned would be great for an LC.
But I'm interested in your findings
Edited by quickpick (08/24/08 11:16 PM)
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: quickpick]
#8822686 - 08/24/08 11:14 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Yes, thanks for you comments. I'm pretty sure polysorbate 80 and methyl cellulose are safe to use. I've used them in my bacteriology and microbiology class experiements. It's just that I haven't used it specifically for suspending spores or mycelium intended for inoculation. I'll let you know how things go.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
Edited by AdoreChampignons (08/24/08 11:19 PM)
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MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
Last seen: 13 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8830335 - 08/26/08 11:40 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
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Polysorbate 80 is fine to use with spores in a very dilute solution. If you look at microbial control plates (used for detection of bacteria and fungi in controlled environments), you'll commonly see it included in the formulation of the agar. You're fine using it.
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 alkylbenzene23
Indeed
Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 576
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: MycoAu]
#8871077 - 09/03/08 10:55 AM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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Why aren't you using the easier answer and just shaking your syringes though?
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If you try to lick your cat while tripping, and they bite you, are you even?
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8874436 - 09/03/08 10:44 PM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:
Why aren't you using the easier answer and just shaking your syringes though?
Just shake the syringes you ask? Well, spores when dry can also be hydrophobic. They can be so hydrophobic that when mixed with water they roll up into tiny bubbles of dry pockets of spores. They float around and simply resist mixing. It's simply frustrating. However, when polysorbate 80 is added, it breaks through the hydrophobicity, dampens the spores, and allows them to become part of the solution. However, people then ask, even if I manage to get all the spores to float freely in the water, aren't they still going to settle down and need to be re-shaken? True, that would happen. However, with the addition of methyl cellulose, a gelling agent, just a little will keep the spores freely floating with out any further shaking.
Did that make sense?
Or, another analogy would the snow globe. Have you ever made one of those things from scratch? Sometimes the snow bunches up and floats to the top of the globe and never floats around to create the wonderful wintery scene. To get the snow to fall, some people add just a drop of detergent, a type of sufactant similar to polysorbate 80. Once the detergent is added, the snow gets wet and begins to float around. However, like the spores, the snow settles down to the bottom of the globe just like spores do in a syringe. I'm the type of guy that just hates to repeatedly do things and always tries to find a better way. In this case, the addition of methyl cellulose would thicken the liquid in the globe as well as the water in a syringe to keep the snow from falling or the spores from settling down.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8876822 - 09/04/08 12:34 PM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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How are you ensuring your methylcellulose and polysorbate 80 are sterile? Do you autoclave your solution before use? (And yes, it is stable if you're wondering.)
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: MycoAu]
#8879096 - 09/04/08 08:06 PM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said:
How are you ensuring your methylcellulose and polysorbate 80 are sterile? Do you autoclave your solution before use? (And yes, it is stable if you're wondering.)
Yes, I do plan to put it through the pressure cooker.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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alkylbenzene23
Indeed
Registered: 08/16/08
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8887487 - 09/06/08 04:30 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
AdoreChampignons said:
Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:
Why aren't you using the easier answer and just shaking your syringes though?
Just shake the syringes you ask? Well, spores when dry can also be hydrophobic. They can be so hydrophobic that when mixed with water they roll up into tiny bubbles of dry pockets of spores. They float around and simply resist mixing. It's simply frustrating. However, when polysorbate 80 is added, it breaks through the hydrophobicity, dampens the spores, and allows them to become part of the solution. However, people then ask, even if I manage to get all the spores to float freely in the water, aren't they still going to settle down and need to be re-shaken? True, that would happen. However, with the addition of methyl cellulose, a gelling agent, just a little will keep the spores freely floating with out any further shaking.
Did that make sense?
I'm quite intelligent, I just prefer to adhere to the KISS principle. Added steps bring added complexity and a greater chance of failure, however if its needed, so be it.
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If you try to lick your cat while tripping, and they bite you, are you even?
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 6,262
Loc: Amsterdam
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8889375 - 09/07/08 01:27 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Isn't this about the same as using Jet-Dry?
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MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
Last seen: 13 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: FooMan]
#8889897 - 09/07/08 07:37 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Yes, it really is. But, to each his own.
Maybe this guy just has a ton of polysorbate that he's itching to use up a drop at a time.
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alkylbenzene23
Indeed
Registered: 08/16/08
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: FooMan]
#8890379 - 09/07/08 10:49 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
FooMan said:
Isn't this about the same as using Jet-Dry?
Wait, people put Jet-Dry in spore syringes?
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: alkylbenzene23]
#8891279 - 09/07/08 02:57 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
alkylbenzene23 said:
Why aren't you using the easier answer and just shaking your syringes though?
True, that would be an easier way. I like to tinker with things though.  I'd like to see if I can make things work better.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: MycoAu]
#8891378 - 09/07/08 03:17 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said:
 ...Maybe this guy just has a ton of polysorbate that he's itching to use up a drop at a time...
 Close. I have just half a ton of polysorbate 80. No..., just kidding. I actually have only about 25ml of the stuff. 25mls may seem like a small amount but in culture work that's quite a bit to be had. I simply like tinkering with things and testing/applying my knowledge of organic chemistry to some of my experiments. A lot of times I end up re-inventing the wheel. At other times I develop methods or techniques that are really quite useful.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8892983 - 09/07/08 08:16 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Don't misunderstand me. I completely know where you are coming from. I'll find what seems to be an obscure method or otherwise interesting way of doing something and pursue it over more practical (cheaper, more effecient) methods. I think it's great that you're trying it out, but it is odd when there's OTC stuff that works "as well".
Please continue searching and posting your ideas- even at the risk of duplicating something already posted!!
(question deleted after reading RR's post on new tags)
Edited by MycoAu (09/07/08 09:20 PM)
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: MycoAu]
#8893321 - 09/07/08 09:06 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said:...I think it's great that you're trying it out, but it is odd when there's OTC stuff that works "as well"...
Yes, I hear what you're saying. You're quite right. Part of my reasons for using compounds like methyl cellulose and polysorbate 80 is that they're left over substances from other growing experiments. I'm also trying to grow a very rare fern. It's so rare that the only person who could sell me spores to that particular fern was located all the way down in New Zealand. Needless to say, with spores being that expensive and difficult to come by, I needed to find a way to dampen them and keep them suspended in solution. Sound familiar? Sowing the fern spores in a way is like working with a mushroom spore syringe. I've done it with fern spores. I just wanted to see what people thought of this technique when it was applied to mushroom growing.
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
Last seen: 13 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: AdoreChampignons]
#8893350 - 09/07/08 09:11 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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I'm not sure how familiar you are with the tissue cultivation, especially of orchids and the like, but it's a remarkably similar hobby to ours here.
Plants from Test Tubes : An Introduction to Micropropagation, Kyte and Kleyn
This is a great book that covers a lot of the aspects you might encounter in propagating ferns if you don't already have a better, more specific-to-subject book.
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AdoreChampignons
Mycophilic One
Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 313
Loc: Seti Alpha 5
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Re: Ever Used Polysorbate 80 As A Surfactant In Spore Syringes? [Re: MycoAu]
#8893507 - 09/07/08 09:35 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said:...Plants from Test Tubes : An Introduction to Micropropagation, Kyte and Kleyn...
Thanks. It's a wonderful book. I bought it some years ago. It really helped me to understand the techniques to micro propagation. Oddly enough even though the book discusses cloning plants, it helped me to "successfully grow" my very first mushroom(shiitake). I used the techniques discussed in that book to clone tissue from a grocery store mushroom. It was a blast. Thanks for keeping me in mind.
Be Well and Be Blessed,
Mycophilic One
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There is no such thing as a dumb question. There are just curious people trying to learn something new.
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