Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!
|
 memory_bakoon
Stranger
Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 72
Last seen: 27 days, 19 hours
|
 Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8794997 - 08/19/08 09:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just for imformation,in my country, a local goverment conducted an experiment on shitake mushrooms using LED.
And interestingly,found that blue LED is not effective for mycelium(on agar) growth.Red,green,fluorecent light showed equal growth.Blue showed only half the growth of red,green and fluorecent light.
But for fruiting,as expected,blue light gave the best result,followed by green,red,and fluorecent light.
But in my own experience,intenstiy is the bigger parameter than color.
I gave only blue light using 100 blue REDs and no pinheads.After that,I gave strong usual light and it started to show pinheads.
|
memory_bakoon
Stranger
Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 72
Last seen: 27 days, 19 hours
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: memory_bakoon]
#8795006 - 08/19/08 09:18 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
typo.
I gave only blue light using 100 blue REDs
I gave only blue light using 100 blue LEDs
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: veda_sticks]
#8802977 - 08/20/08 08:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hi veda_sticks,
I hope you found the info in this thread useful, I'm using the bulbs and lights I described this month and I'll post some results. Any thoughts you have are very welcome!
Quote:
this would probably be better in the advanced mycology.
I totally agree. I originally started it there but RR moved it here, which I did not agree with. As you've stated, and I believe as do many others: this info is advanced. More advanced than RR would like to admit, I don't understand why he thinks this is not advanced, maybe because I'm unknown and essentially proving the info he provides regarding light is not accurate in the manner of it's presentation (as being the most advanced and current info on light, which I've proven it is not).
Also, no where else have I read current scientific, peer reviewed and accepted research information as I've presented here. All current (and past) scientific research of p.cube type basidiomycetes has came to the same conclusion, that which I present in this thread.
I would really like to see this thread be moved into Advanced because that sub-forum is so much quieter, this thread gets lost here in the endless ocean of threads like: "look at this..." and "hey heres the same Q for the thousandths time...", lol.
Thanks and hope your having a great day!
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8802978 - 08/20/08 08:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hi RR,
Once again, I ask that we can bury the hatchet? But that doesnt mean we cant disagree and each of us cant be wrong. It just means we are nice to each other and rely upon science and proven data when we make claims like saying scientific research is bunk and information X is the most current and accurate info.
Deal? 
Quote:
Quote:
quote from "veda sticks":
this would probably be better in the advanced mycology.
Nope, its a cultivation topic.
Can you please explain why you consider it a cultivation topic? I am not describing how to grow mushrooms, this is not a tek (yet  ). The info presented is focused upon a single topic: light, scientific data and then providing what is proven optimal.
Im curious: Have you talked to the other Mods from the Advanced forum? Do they agree with your decision?
Quote:
We do know that light is a secondary pinning trigger after other more important parameters have been met, but still an important one at that.
Just so we are on the same page can you please state, with detail, what you consider to be "more important parameters"? I think maybe we are not thinking the same thing.
All the data and research Ive provided states the same thing, that which Ive stated a few times to you already: Once the vegetative phase is over and when temps are around 10C-25C light is the trigger for pinhead set initiation. And if temps are over 25C they can pin in darkness, with caveats. Do you have different data and research from what Ive provided?
Quote:
We also know that light in the higher frequency ranges supports better pinsets than light in the lower(red) frequency ranges.
Yes but thats like saying "we know to fruit they need high humidity" without knowing what humidity is ideal, nor knowing how to measure it.
By using kelvins as a measurement you dont know whats going on and even 6500K bulbs do not offer the correct photons within the action specta of p.cube and other similar basidiomycetes. While using K as a guide is good its not optimal, especially when you consider most fluorescents dont offer the right blue, violet or UVa.
We know fluorescents with high K will grow mushrooms but now we also know they lack the most important wavelengths. And we now know the bulbs to buy and where to get them. Why would you argue with that? Especially without providing any proof to backup you claims? I normally wouldnt ask for proof and scientific data but because your saying accepted science is wrong I really do want to see your proof. If you right than I will be the first to thank you, I really do want to know if Im not correct.
Why not just say:
"Wow, thats neat info, and backed up by over 20 years of scientific, peer-reviewed research and studies? Thats great." You could then choose to apply the info or not, but to argue its validity without offering proof is not acceptable, IMO. I bet for every 1 person who believes me, 1000 believe you. The problem is in this case you wrong, so they will also be wrong...not good for overall community.
Quote:
We also know that higher intensity light is more effective than lower intensity light.
Its not that black and light (forgive the crappy pun ).
Higher irradiance is better than too low irradiance, but if you provide too high irradiance it is worse then providing too low irradiance.
The key here is what is the optimal level of irradiance? We need to use moles (PPF) to find a specific level, and Im pretty sure I read the research on that, Ill find it and post it. For practical use (though inaccurate) an inexpensive light meter would be useful to measure the lux at the sub/mushrooms. If we know we are using the correct bulbs (e.g. "Vita Lite" and "ReptiSun" [or its ilk]) then I would feel OK about using a lux meter to state a good lux because we know we are offering the right wavelengths (e.g. action spectra) in the first place.
Quote:
However, its a basic cultivation related subject that has already been covered many, many times before. Ive seen nothing new here, but simply a repeat of mostly discredited old information.
While I agree the info from Stamets and the PDFs he references have been covered many times (though I think Im the first to post the actual PDFs) the info is not basic, it is advanced. And also I reference new research which backs up the old research, the new research I present I have not seen present elsewhere, including here. And my presentation and understanding of the research is also what makes it advanced...Its not like I said: "use blue light cuz ive read that is the shit".
Hell, today, in scientific research they use photons and nanometers (spectral output) as a method of measure, not K (in most cases), so why would you think offering a K rating is more advanced than offering the action spectra, quantum effectiveness of wavelengths, etc? Especially when I reference sources written as recently as 1998? ("Fungal Morphogenesis" by David Moore).
Re: "simply a repeat": Please read the four preceding paragraphs I wrote
Quote:
...mostly discredited old information.
RR, I would expect more from you than this. I thought you were scientific minded and accepted only the most accurate and vetted info.
And as Ive asked you like 10 times already, can you please state explicitly, what info is discredited and then provide research backing up your claims?
Quote:
Talk is cheap, but experimentation isnt.
I agree to a point. But to carry out a proper experiment one must first discuss, evaluate, research previous studies, etc before deciding upon a methodology of an experiment. It is absolutely necessary to be able to answer these issues: The why and how, along with offering background research, cite sources for more info, a very detailed explanation, etc.
Quote:
Hopefully, the original poster will learn to grow mushrooms,
Why the personal attack? I have not disparaged you one bit. I disagree with you and I get kind of annoyed when you say things are discredited while refusing to offer proof. But that quote is far of wide a personal and unjustified attack, a Mod should have better manners. Never one time did I say I dont know how to grow mushrooms, in fact I stated I havent grown them in years, but Ive grown them and never alluded otherwise. But thats not an issue with me, just a bit annoying. What I dislike is your 3rd person reference to me as "the original poster", you know my nic. That is just rude...
I know your very good at growing mushrooms, I know your a HUGE help to this community, but I also know you can be wrong, as can we all...and in this case IMVHO you are wrong, but you refuse to admit it, if you could read this thread with an objective eye you would, IMO, agree with me and countless peer reviewed and accepted scientific research.
Quote:
experiment, and one day will report his findings.
I will but why dont you prefer the finding of scientists who specialize in mycology? I have shown via countless references what the action spectra of p.cube is and why kelvin is not an optimal method of measure, nor are regular fluorescent bulbs sufficient for optimal results.
I am merely going to copy what those scientists have already proven. Im not creating something new, Im just doing the background research, connecting the dots, dotting the Is and presenting it all here for everyones benefit (well everyones but yours I guess, jk ).
The whole reason I wrote this thread before starting the grow was to vet the info and work out any kinks, etc. Then, once Im 100% sure Ive researched and studied all the aspects Im aware of I will act...not before.
I do have to thank you and others who question the data, besides being healthy and the fact any info should stand up to scrutiny, what I like most is when you guys question things which increases my knowledge by the virtue of my research for a scientific response in a well thought out manner.
Quote:
experiment, and one day will report his findings.
One should not throw stone in a glass house: You have yet to provide the research you use and the data of the finding you cite when calling much of the info I present "discredited" or "debunked". Please, I again ask you, provide the references for your claims, thank you.
...Lastly I wanted to leave you with some fairly current research (1994) I presented that maybe you missed?...
"Photomorphogenesis in Plants"
by By R.E. Kendrick, G.H.M. Kronenberg, 1994, p.776
Action spectra for pinhead set initiation and fruit-body development, along with info on "too" much irradiance of P.cubensis, F.arcularius, etc:
Google book link
Quote:
9.6.5.2 Photoreception in basidiomycetes
Light not only induces fruiting and promotes achievement of morphogenesis, including sporogenesis and sporulation of sporophores of Coprinus congregatus, but also can inhibit development of primordia and progression of meiosis, when provided at an excessive level at teh so-called stage of sensitivity to darkness (Section 9.6.3.2.1). The action spectra for the initiation phase of this species showed peaks of effectiveness at 260, 280, 370 and 440 nm. However, the spectral sensitivity for common photoreceptor during each successive morphogenetical phase (Fig. 11). A similar action spectrum was established for the fruit-body formation of another basidiomycete Schizophyllum commune (Yli-Mattila 1985), with a specific 340-360 nm peak higher than the peaks in the B region. Over the last 20 years, basically analogous action spectra have been described for several other basidiomycetes, with peaks in both UV-A, 320-440 nm, and B, 400-520 nm [e.g. Favolus arcularius, Kitamoto et al. (1971); Psilocybe cubensis, Badham (1980 ; Pleurotus ostreatus, Richartz and Mac Lellan (1987)]. Furthermore, fairly precise data indicate that carpophore initiation and development in basidiomycetes can also be eventually inhibited by excessive B/UV-A (see for review Durhand 1985) [Note: By using the term "excessive" they are referring to light which is too intense (irradiance).]]
I really do hope we can have discussions and vet info off each other, there is no need to be "at" one another. We can disagree and still be civil and get a lot accomplished. I have more new and very interesting data regarding amendments to bulk sub, casing, etc. I think youll like the info Ill present, and Id like your opinion too. I also have more neat data on how red light effects growth, or lack thereof.
QuickPick
Edited by quickpick (08/20/08 08:27 PM)
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8802980 - 08/20/08 08:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey memory_bakoon,
Quote:
Just for imformation,in my country, a local goverment conducted an experiment on shitake mushrooms using LED.
And interestingly,found that blue LED is not effective for mycelium(on agar) growth.Red,green,fluorecent light showed equal growth.Blue showed only half the growth of red,green and fluorecent light.
But for fruiting,as expected,blue light gave the best result,followed by green,red,and fluorecent light.
Thanks for the info but unfortunately as far as I know shitake is not considered to have similar light requirements (e.g. action specta and irradiance) of p.cube and other p.cube like basidiomycetes (in terms of light requirements).
For p.cube and like basidiomycetes the action spectra from pinhead set initiation to fruit-body development is about 315 nm to 515 nm, with peaks at the levels I've listed previously.
Thanks and hope your havening a good day!
Edited by quickpick (08/20/08 08:28 PM)
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8803140 - 08/20/08 08:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey again memory_bakoon!
Quote:
I gave only blue light using 100 blue REDs and no pinheads.After that,I gave strong usual light and it started to show pinheads.
LED's should be able to grow p.cubes, especially considering p.cube doesn't need very much irradiance. But the problem is you'd need a few LEDs each offering a different nm within UVa, violet and blue.
What size LED's did you use in terms of diodes and watt? What nanometer did they emit?
To use a LED you need to place it within 6 inches of the destination (mushroom), close is better, even to 1-2 inches maybe good. Testing is needed. The problem with LED is the 'inverse square law' and at close distance they don't offer a large foot print. LEDs can be used as adjunctive lighting offering to 'main' lighting.
I have a nice 180 diode, 10 watt, blue LED emitting 490 nm. It is as large of a blue LED as your gonna find, it was a special order and had to be made to order, red's usually only come this large.
I was thinking of doing a side by side (eventually) with the LED (490 nm; blue) vs the ReptiSun (UVa). I could use them from pin set to harvest, then we could have a better 'real world' idea of the effect of different wavelengths within the action spectra.
If you still have those LEDs keep them! Use the blue as an 'extra' light offering wavelength within p.cubes action spectra. It would be good to use that with a 'regular' fluorescent. And for the red LED you could use it while inoculating and pre-pinhead set. Or you can use it if you need to visit your shrooms during there dark period. It's best to not let light in during the dark period as it could cause light break (with caveats). If you use the red light you can still see but the p.cubes probably can not utilize (data is not solid) the red light, they think it's dark, which IMO is preferable.
HTH
Edited by quickpick (08/20/08 09:02 PM)
|
Nunbuh_Chrubble
I'm just a kittycat
Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 3,530
Last seen: 14 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8803394 - 08/20/08 09:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quickpick said:
All a grower needs to do is order the Vita Lite, purchase the ReptiSun and maybe a fluorescent ballast if they need one: about $50.00 all together and can be ordered while sitting in front of the computer
I just use a tiny 8watt fluorescent bulb I got from the hardware store for like $5. Nearly got a qp from the first flush on one grow with only 2 gallons of substrate. I'm not really worried about optimizing my pinset. I don't even use a casing layer anymore. 
And I don't know if you realize it, but $50 is kind of a lot of money to most people. Especially when the benefits may not be distinguishable from normal variations from genetics without hardcore statistical analysis and experimental controls.
I'm not saying it's not interesting, but it's unnecessary and that's probably why you aren't getting many responses.
Anyways, good luck and have fun.
--------------------
"This day is a lover..."
~Rumi
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
|
HEy Nunbuh_Chrubble,
Thanks, and have good day!
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8806121 - 08/21/08 01:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey again Nunbuh_Chrubble,
Forgot to mention, if you wanted to use any of the info I wrote or presented for your cultivation wiki feel free
Oh and while I agree the 'extra' benefits of using proper lighting is not qualified yet, and they might be minor, they are IMO not unnecessary as they will produce a more healthy mushroom and after all that's what we all want. I personally hypothesize that offering the correct light will increase the strength (quantity) of the psilocybin...an ideal environment is bound to produce more ideal mushrooms.
And yes, I understand $50 can be a lot to some people but in the grand scheme it's not a lot. It's like one night at the bars, or a few movies, or a dinner out, or the cost of a video game or blue-ray DVD, etc. And the benefits that could be offered maybe well worth it IMO.
And the $50 is for (2) Vita Lights and (2) ReptiSun lights. If you wanted only one Vita Lite and one ReptiSun then it would only be like $30.00 and if you get them off ebay you could get both of them for like $10-15!
Lastly, I just don't understand why people would not want to do EVERYTHING optimally as long as it's not too expensive or too time consuming. Why would someone want to grow 'good enough' mushrooms? I don't understand the mind-set, to me, it's all about providing them what they would get in Nature which they utilize, simple as that.
Thanks and have a good one!
Edited by quickpick (08/21/08 01:45 PM)
|
quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: Action Spectra and full PDFs! :--) [Re: quickpick]
#8806216 - 08/21/08 01:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Oh, one last thought for now:
It's not only about pin set, it's also about fruit-body development, mycelium growth, preventing possible 'light break' (via red light in dark phase), reducing stress, etc. And possibly increasing psilocybin and yield do to optimal light, which in and of itself may not provide noticeable increases in psilocybin or yield, but by virtue of providing light in the action spectra which allows the mushroom to grow more healthy, as it's given what it wants, not merely what it can 'get by on'...
Thanks
| |
|
|
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
