|
 Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
 Grain spawn without pressure cooking
#8729280 - 08/05/08 02:12 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Hello everybody,
recently, while experimenting with fermented substrates, I discovered an easy way to create grain spawn without the need to sterilize anything. I am using it for Pleurotus ostreatus and Pleurotus eryngii. A few tries indicate it also works for Stropharia rugosoannulata, Coprinus comatus and cubes, perhaps also for Agrocybe aegerita. No success with Agaricus bisporus yet.
Heres what you have to do:
- Soak the grain for 24 hours.
- Cook it shortly, so the kernels wont germinate.
- Rinse it with clean water.
- Fill jars half with the cooked grain.
- Add water until filled up to three quarters.
- Remove kernels, which are floating on top.
- Close the lid loosely.
- Wait.
- Turn the jars every day or use a clean spoon and stir around.
After a few days lactic acid fermentation will start, like in bread baking with sourdough or like in bacterial contam. This time it is what we want. You will notice bubbles of air rising and a sour and fruity smell appears. Let it bubble for another few days.
Possible problems:
- If you notice a whitish film on the surface, there is yeast growing on top. Use a clean spoon and remove it.
- Some kernels will rise to the surface. If you don't move the jars, they may stay there, dry out partially and green mold can grow.
- Sometimes, When waiting too long like one or two months, other bacteria take over and produce acetic acid, which seems to be toxic for mushroom mycelium.
The PH falls from 7 to 4 and after a week or two, the grain is ready. Strain the water and inoculate with fresh and clean mushroom stems or mycelium growing in wood or straw. Use at least a spoonful and don't mix. Just put it on top. Now it will take several days for the mycelium to adapt to the low PH. The above mentioned mushroom species are known to digest bacteria, so they will happily eat whatever they find and grow vigorously and dense into the grain.
The whole process takes longer than the sterile way and needs a bigger amount of starting mycelium, but you don't need a pressure cooker, HEPA-filter, glove box and all that stuff. You can work on your kitchen table and open air. Just be clean. Of course you should keep the jars closed after inoculation, but you can safely open them from time to time, if you want to check the smell or whatever. The high amount of lactic acid and the active bacteria will prevent mold and yeast from growing, even if spores are present.
A few days after complete colonization, you can use the grain spawn to inoculate wood chips, straw or more fermented grain. Don't expect to be able to shake the jars to separate the kernels. Use a spoon to break your spawn into small pieces. When going to straw or wood chips, mix well.
Thats it for now. Have fun with this method and please post here if you find out it works for other species too. Lentinus edodes will possibly not work well, as shiitake mycelium usually separates itself from bacterial contams, building up the usual brown surface. It may take weeks, until it grows further into the fermented grain.
Greetings, Carsten
PS: Some pictures:
Pleurotus eryngii growing into fermented wheat:
Pleurotus ostreatus stems on fermented wheat, fed with wood chips and straw, fruiting outdoor:
       
Edited by Mycelio (09/04/08 10:08 AM)
|
lipa
Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 604
Loc: Where it doesn't rain.
Last seen: 8 hours, 12 minutes
|
 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8729350 - 08/05/08 02:27 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Thats Great Carsten! Love the pics and the fact that you posted your whole experiment. How did you get introduced t this method or is it purely your own.
That awesome stuff!!!
LIPA
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: lipa]
#8729605 - 08/05/08 03:40 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Thanks Lipa! After having success with fermented straw, I did dozens of experiments, trying mixtures of straw, coffee grounds, alfalfa hay, wood chips, flour, legumes and so on. Some fermented OK, once I had banana smell, others smelled like puke...
One day I tried fermenting pure grain and it worked best.
First I worried about dangerous bacteria or toxins, but then I realized the same smell as from sourdough. So it is only lactic acid fermentation as it gets used in fermented food, health drinks, agriculture, etc.
Carsten
|
MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
Last seen: 13 hours, 17 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: lipa]
#8729622 - 08/05/08 03:46 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
While I'm very sceptical of the method b/c of safety issues for most of the people too lazy/poor to use sterilization techniques, this is quite intriguing.
Seems to eliminate the bacteria first and foremost by cooking (after the soak). Then, water creates an anaerobic environment, limiting the number, types and quantities of organisms that will proliferate. The growth of yeast and the production of the acids (as metabolic products) lowers the pH, rendering the whole lot unacceptable as a growth medium for a larger and/or different group of organisms.
Perhaps a 1 hour soak in lime water (for neutralization of acids and raising the pH and addition of calcium) would prove a short step to add more selectivity at the end of the process (as we know this works for straw and cardboard).
I might try this at some point with P. ostreatus just to see what turns out. I'm kinda put-off by the comments on the "smell"- I know that smell and it's not pleasant.
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8730134 - 08/05/08 05:43 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Yes, all the oxygen in the water is used up by microbes, then the lactobacillus quickly grows and kills or deactivates all the others with lactic acid. I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again.
The initial cooking is only to prevent the seeds from developing roots. Perhaps cooking is not necessary at all. When starting sourdough, I use tap water and fresh flour from untreated grain, where billions of microbes of all types are present and the process still works fine.
Carsten
|
worowa
Professor
Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 83
Last seen: 16 hours, 16 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8730166 - 08/05/08 05:49 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Well I've just the done the same thing with Eryngii! Well pretty similar.
I had a bucket of wheat soaking in water with a tablespoon of "Aware" clothes wahing powder. Supposed to be a 24-48hr soak, but I forgot about for a week. When I checked it was bubbling away-yeast fermentation. I drained it, then filled it up with just boiled water...then forgot about again for about another week. This time when I opened it, it smelled sour. I drained it again and poured on some boiled water, then drained it when cooled and inoculated with Eryngii spawn. The growth is now luxuriant, glad I didn't chuck it all out.
I'ld love to try this with King Stropharia-if I could find some spores.
--------------------
We are all in this together
|
Juke Adro
I Love Peach Fluff mmm
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 3,216
Loc: In a orifice of the oppos...
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8730181 - 08/05/08 05:51 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Thats very cool I really like it, Its worth a play 
--------------------
Someone said: im actually not using ms, im using prints.
    
Khat, Kratom, Ephedra, Cacti seeds wanted, pm offers.
The chick in my ava is Ewa Sonnet here is the full version on my avatar http://www.funpub.net/videos/Sexy/8581/Ewa+Sonnet+Striptease/
|
waixingren
I am the FrizzleFry
Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 1,660
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 10 hours, 24 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8730256 - 08/05/08 06:04 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
thats great Mycelio, i was hoping you would post that on this forum.
--------------------
"The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words. And that if you know the words that the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you wish. "
-T.M.
|
falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2,524
Last seen: 7 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8730360 - 08/05/08 06:26 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Great work Carsten! This is as cool as Phase II composting!
|
P.Menace
Contradicting the Status Quo
Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 3,880
Loc: Let Me See Potato Salad!!...
Last seen: 4 days, 2 hours
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732211 - 08/06/08 02:18 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mycelio said:
I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again.
Carsten
To my knowledge the "Contaminate" spores/endospores prefer the lower more acidic Ph. Thats what I was assuming was the reason for the "Later" contams taking over casings and cakes. The Metabolites being produced by the Myc. so it can "digest" the grain systematically over time reduces the Ph of the Substrate and allows for the Contaminates to take a foothold.
I know Tric, Olive and Black Mold all prefer the lower Ph. I had discovered this fact when I was playing with Pannelus Stipticus Bio-luminescent mushrooms. They prefer a Ph of about 3 to fruit, they will not colonize Neutral Ph MEA, and the contam rate for the species is thru the roof, due to its low Ph requirement.
As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams.
Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.
IDK
--------------------
I just LOVE how everybody has their facts real straight...
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Cubensae/Psilocybe_cubensis_Menace
SainT420 said: You gotta be a Man of your Word... Or you will be a Man of NO WORDS! 6 feet Under
Prisoner # 1 said: always remember, the stupid ones never realize they're stupid... BlackMatch456,lil_demented,Dizzwizzle,djblackout
Blutjager said: "The work for payoff ratio for pf tek is like driving 500 miles to work all day for minimum wage,.  in other words ITS NOT WORTH IT "
roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.
|
 tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,138
Loc: Gondwana
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732225 - 08/06/08 02:42 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
That's amazing Mycelio! Great to see people willing to experiment. This is a pretty good method for those people who don't own a pressure cooker. I love it!!
--------------------
Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: P.Menace]
#8732355 - 08/06/08 04:39 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
P.Menace said:
Quote:
Mycelio said:
I never tried raising the PH before inoculation. It would surely make it easier for the mycelium to colonize, but then the contams would have a chance to grow again.
Carsten
To my knowledge the "Contaminate" spores/endospores prefer the lower more acidic Ph. Thats what I was assuming was the reason for the "Later" contams taking over casings and cakes. The Metabolites being produced by the Myc. so it can "digest" the grain systematically over time reduces the Ph of the Substrate and allows for the Contaminates to take a foothold.
I know Tric, Olive and Black Mold all prefer the lower Ph. I had discovered this fact when I was playing with Pannelus Stipticus Bio-luminescent mushrooms. They prefer a Ph of about 3 to fruit, they will not colonize Neutral Ph MEA, and the contam rate for the species is thru the roof, due to its low Ph requirement.
As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams.
Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.
IDK
Thank you for the explanation!
I once took some fermented grain, put it in a jar and left it open for a few hours, while cleaning up the room to ensure it would receive a high dose of dust and endospores. After two month a strong smell of acetic acid appeared, but no trich or other mold appeared.
Blamed it on the PH, but this is misinterpreted then.
So there must be something else happening, preventing mold from growing.
Carsten
|
spacel0rd
anarcho hippie
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 101
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8732460 - 08/06/08 05:57 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
|
|
can you fruit right from the fermented grain?
and why can't you inoculate it with spores? because of the acidic milieu?
edit: i guess i'll try it with colonised cardboard asap
Edited by spacel0rd (08/06/08 06:01 AM)
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8732644 - 08/06/08 08:09 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
|
|
Species, which can grow on fermented grain and do not require a casing layer, may fruit by themselves. I'm sure my oysters would have developed fruitbodies, if I gave them enough time.
Once I put spores from Agrocybe aegerita on fermented grain, but nothing happened during four weeks. Together with mold spores not growing there, I'd say the chances are very low.
Carsten
|
Springs
Mine(d)
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 329
Loc: sky hi
Last seen: 28 days, 5 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8736281 - 08/06/08 09:39 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
|
|
It may help to start a culture on a plate with a lower ph so the mycelium is used to the low ph environ.
Ive had big bags of sterilized grain spawn colonizing in too high of temps which after shaking have the "smell" but colonize fine after a few days.
I think using EM(efficient microorganisms) in a similar fashion could produce interesting results.
It would be cool to try larger anaerobic vessels, such as 5 gallon buckets, and 45 gallon food containers, could be useful for our door beds and the such.
Ive read of someone fermenting their straw the same way for bulk oyster production.
And of course we cant forget Rejuvelac:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070829102646/http://www.hishealingways.com/rejuvelac/makerejuvelac.html
http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/rejuvelac.php
and
http://rawlivingfoods.typepad.com/1/2007/08/rejuvelac-recip.html
|
MycoAu
Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 650
Last seen: 13 hours, 17 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Springs]
#8736557 - 08/06/08 10:40 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
|
|
Check out page 177 of GGMM for infomation on the Yeast Fermentation Method. Describes in short order what is going on here.
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8737523 - 08/07/08 03:19 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
|
|
@Springs & MycoAu
Thanks for adding the rejuvelac links and mentioning that part of GGMM here!
I use fermented straw a lot. I simply cover soaked straw pellets with tap water. On the second day fermentation starts. After 4 to 7 days the PH fell to 5,5 to 6 and then I use bare hands (of course clean), press out all the excess water and inoculate. Colonization is faster than in fermented grain. The few trich contams I had, came from contaminated inoculation material.
Carsten
|
spacel0rd
anarcho hippie
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 101
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8737992 - 08/07/08 08:49 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
|
|
To what kind of grains can this method be applied? Or what are main factors for fermentation so I could figure out what to use.
|
Mycelio
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Last seen: 39 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8738487 - 08/07/08 11:08 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
|
|
Any kind of grain should work.
So far I tried wheat, rye and millet. Also rye grass but it tends to swim on top, when fermentation starts.
Next time I will try brown rice and popcorn.
Carsten
edit: Just be sure everything is under water. All available oxygen will be consumed quickly. The following fermentation is anaerobic.
Edited by Mycelio (08/07/08 11:13 AM)
|
spacel0rd
anarcho hippie
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 101
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Juke Adro]
#8744939 - 08/08/08 03:59 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
|
|
i like the idea of adding microorganisms. might add some yoghurt to kickstart fementation. what about a very small amount of yeast? hope it is similar enough not to do any harm. any ideas?
|
|
login or 
register to post messages and view our members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, encrypted messages, file attachments, board customizations, and much more!
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
Quote 
