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 Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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 Proofs of Varying Religions 
#8676261 - 07/24/08 11:51 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hello again everybody. I have a question I have been pondering lately, and I wanted to see if anybody could offer any insight into this matter.
Lately, a strange idea comes to me that religions can be proved as false or true through their sacred scriptures, a presumption that is not illogical in the least. Based on the fact that the sacred scriptures for all the major religions are ancient and were written before 20th century science revolutionized our view of everything, I wondered which religions were still in accordance with the known truth and which were not, as judged by their respective scriptures.
First of all I studied the Taoist and Hindu scriptures, which make some interesting claims. However, these deal almost entirely with mystical experiences from a seemingly human perspective, except for the concept of the Tao or Brahman or deathless Self. There is, there is a a pervasive immanence in the universe that causes it be seen as separate, yet when enlightened, it is seen as one force. From my current point of view, this seems to be a reflection on God's omnipresence, yet there are no real testable claims in these religions.
Buddhism, however, does have one I discovered in the Tipitaka.
""Now when the disciple of the noble ones has arrived at this purity of equanimity & mindfulness, he recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes & details."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html
Now from a scientific viewpoint, "eons of cosmic contraction and expansion" would almost certainly refer to the hypothesis of the Big Bang followed by the expansion of the universe before gravity draws in back in to a "Big Crunch" before exploding into existence again.
However, modern science says exactly the opposite on this matter. Dark matter and dark energy are causing the universe to expand (the galaxies to get farther away from each other) at an increasing rate. That is, the farther into the life of the universe we go, the more the expansion is speeding up rather than slowing down. This certainly contradicts what the Buddha claimed to be divine knowledge.
Finally, the most interesting religious scripture one could possibly study is the Qu'ran. This is because it not only deals with mystical experiences of the heart, but also claims to be an infallible scripture and does indeed have scientific statements in it relevent to modern science.
In fact, from what I have read in it (and I have read in its entirely multiple times), I have not yet found anything false.
It was written in the 600s by a man who was supposedly illiterate and had no scientific training whatsoever, yet it speaks of things that would not be proven until the 20th century. For example, in the surah of "The Prophets," it says:
[21:26] Yet, they said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Glory be to Him. All (messengers) are (His) honored servants.
[21:27] They never speak on their own, and they strictly follow His commands.
[21:28] He knows their future and their past. They do not intercede, except for those already accepted by Him, and they are worried about their own necks.
[21:29] If any of them claims to be a god beside Him, we requite him with Hell; we thus requite the wicked.
[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Both of these statements are correct according to modern knowledge. Earth is the only planet with life and the only planet with liquid water. Also, it seems to refer explicitly to the Big Bang.
In "The Drivers of the Wind" surah, it says,
[51:43] In Thamoud (there is a lesson). They were told, "Enjoy temporarily."
[51:44] They rebelled against the command of their Lord. Consequently, the lightning struck them as they looked.
[51:45] They could never get up, nor were they helped.
[51:46] And the people of Noah before that; they were wicked people.
[51:47] We constructed the sky with our hands, and We will continue to expand it.
[51:48] And We made the earth habitable; a perfect design.
Here, it seems to refer to the expansion of the universe via dark matter and energy, both of which are still mostly unexplainable in modern science yet proven to exist.
In the beginning of the surah "Detailed" (rightly named actually) it says,
[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
To modern astronomers, the theory that the solar system was all gaseous before condensing into the sun and the planets is universally held due to modern evidence.
In the surah of "The Believers," it seems to refer to modern embryology when it says,
[23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud.
[23:13] Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository.
[23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the alaqa (translated as leech, blood clot or hanging embryo) into a chewed up lump, then created the chewed up lump into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.
In fact, the embryo does look like a leech microscopically in the first stage, and is also a blood clot because the blood does not yet flow through it at this stage. In the next stage, the growing fetus does look similar to a chewed up piece of gum with bite marks from a human mouth (called somites in modern embyrology).
There are other verses too that were interesting, but these surprised me the most seeing as the Qu'ran was written in the 600s by a supposedly illiterate man who had no known scientific training.
How would you explain such a phenomena?
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
Edited by Ravus (07/25/08 09:05 PM)
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 learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 18 days
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8676471 - 07/24/08 12:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would explain it by if you're looking for Dark Matter in there that you're gonna find it. How do you get dark matter from "we made it with our hands"? Continue to expand it could also obviously refer to having a larger islamic nation...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,518
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8676584 - 07/24/08 01:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lately, a strange idea comes to me that religions can be proved as fasle or true through their sacred scriptures, a presumption that is not illogical in the least.
Strange is right.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Icelander]
#8676687 - 07/24/08 01:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fantastic insight, but the eons of contraction seem to be referring more to a general status of perception, and less as an offered trait for the entirety of the universe.
The 'Whole' that bhuddism often refers to makes very grandiose claims, but it is easy to take our western perspective based on quantified and quarantined fact as opposed to a piece of the whole, we wonder if the head of the cat seen through a narrow slit is the cause of the tail to quote Allen Watts.
I, personally, disagree that religion should be exempt from scientific scrutiny, when it plays a hopeful role as the end-all, be-all or moral/ethical basis; especially with religions such as Islam and Christianity which propose this based solely on their archaic text and imply it for all of those, believers or non. But in a context of metaphorical presupposition, as in the bhuddist quote above, this is not being said as a ultimatum but simply as a subjective observation from an enlightened state not burdened by ego-restriction or material bias.
That being said, we really don't have enough information to judge the truth of the universe, (in terms of big-crunch, ever expanding, bubble universes, string/M-theory), but maybe in our separating of these theories we are missing a bigger picture. Why couldn't there be a combination of many? Making truths of all religion that would be applicable at least dimly correct.
It would be unlikely, but then again, how unlikely is it that we are here to be alive and on a message board on an unlikely internet in the form of an unlikely biological organism in an unlikely universe?
~Monk
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,201
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Quote:
I would explain it by if you're looking for Dark Matter in there that you're gonna find it.
In my experience, this (accommodation) is a near-constant among True Believers. It's how fortune tellers tell fortunes to believers who will find some way to fit the data and validate their beliefs.
If instead of vague statements the Koran said something specific like that human DNA is a helix and contains 23 pairs of chromosomes and that one of them is different in the two sexes, well THAT would make me sit up and pay attention.
But it doesn't say anything specific. Neither any other religious book.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8677783 - 07/24/08 07:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Human beings are created from mud?
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Diploid]
#8677846 - 07/24/08 07:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't agree that it doesn't say anything specific. When it says the heavens and the earth were one solid mass that We (God) exploded/ cleaved into existence, that seems one of the most specific ancient statements ever to refer to the Big Bang in the creation of the universe. It also is specific when it says God spoke to the sky and the earth when they were still gas, which is an ancient statement that corresponds to the conglomeration of the solar system from gas into this solid planet we now inhabit.
As for the human beings created from mud, in context (as it repeats similar statements in different ways) it seems to refer simply to the fact that human beings came from the primordial crust of the earth after liquid water combined with the mud (From water we created all living beings). Perhaps there were organic nucleic acids or similar primitive structures in the "mud" or the crust of the primordial earth that it refers to, but it also must be kept in mind this book was meant to be understood by people who lived in the 600s.
I do not expect to find any miraculous scientific equations such as E=MC^2 in the Qu'ran, the Bible, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, the Dhammapadda or any other ancient scriptures. It is amazing that the Qu'ran is as specific as it is, seeing as it was narrated by a man who had no scientific training whatsoever, unless you believe that it came to him from the angel Gabriel as claimed. In that case, it would be simply divine.
I do seem to get the feeling the Buddha is talking about his memory becoming the memory of all his previous lives into the incarnation of the universe itself, so I don't understand in what context "eons of cosmic contraction, eons of cosmic expansion" is referring to. Personally, I think they were trying to apply the idea of reincarnation (which I do not believe at all) to the universe. The Buddha also said that the creator of the universe was subject to passing away just as the creation passes away. While I respect the Buddha for his mystical insight into the human condition, I think he was quite wrong on some things.
Reading sacred scriptures is one of my foremost loves though, to see how human beings try to understand birth, death and even eternity itself in the most advanced religions. If anybody has any quotes from sacred scriptures to offer me (noticeably from the Native American scriptures of the Great Spirit that I have not investigated) that correspond with modern science, I would greatly appreciate it.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Philanthropist
Savior ofMankind
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8678369 - 07/24/08 10:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Very interesting post Ravus. I enjoy other people as myself who pursue their spirituality with open mindedness. I can see why you perceive these written scriptures to be scientificly factual, you look deeper within their meanings. You are searching so hard for the answers. What you do not know is this knowledge has been said before in all ethnicities and lands over the Earth. All religions relate to each other through a belief of, what happens when you die. The only truth is none of us know what happens. None of these religions can prove what happens, they can only give you guidance on how to exist. Our human condition limits our mental abilities. If we knew life wouldn't be as interesting now would it?
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8678546 - 07/24/08 10:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
Lately, a strange idea comes to me that religions can be proved as fasle or true through their sacred scriptures, a presumption that is not illogical in the least.
True.
Get it, read it. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,518
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8680509 - 07/25/08 12:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Reading sacred scriptures is one of my foremost loves though, to see how human beings try to understand birth, death and even eternity itself in the most advanced religions.
Nothing wrong with that. I find it interesting myself. What I find boring is how it's loosely interpreted to validate just about any idea about anything. If people realized that there is something to be found of value in just about everything without the whole thing having to be some kind of holy truth we could sit back and enjoy all this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8682147 - 07/25/08 09:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The Native American scriptures are interesting as well, though of course the different tribes seem to have no cohesion. For example, the Achomawi speak of "Silver-Fox" creating the earth, when Silver-Fox was himself created of a cloud. The Abenaki, closer to the recognizable monotheistic religions of the Old World, speak of Great Spirit as the creator.
Most interesting is the concept of "Great Spirit". My father once told me that God sent messengers to every nation on the earth, tens of thousands of divine messengers in total. I asked him about the Native Americans, as they had no contact with Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus, Mohammed or any other known messenger if this is the truth. He said that in fact a messenger was sent to the Native Americans, and this message brought them knowledge of the "Great Spirit", which, if true, would be the same spirit as Krishna, Allah, Yahweh, Ishvara, the Monad, etc. If indeed there is an eternal oneness outside of time, then it is not unreasonable to think that many sacred scriptures should reflect this, even if the cultures had no contact with one another for thousands of years.
The Abenaki creation story is interesting in this context.
"The Great Spirit, in a time not known to us looked about and saw nothing. No colors, no beauty. Time was silent in darkness. There was no sound. Nothing could be seen or felt. The Great Spirit decided to fill this space with light and life.
From his great power he commanded the sparks of creation. He ordered Tôlba, the Great Turtle to come from the waters and become the land. The Great Spirit molded the mountains and the valleys on turtle's back. He put white clouds into the blue skies. He was very happy. He said, "Everything is ready now. I will fill this place with the happy movement of life." He thought and thought about what kind of creatures he would make.
Where would they live? What would they do? What would their purpose be? He wanted a perfect plan. He thought so hard that he became very tired and fell asleep.
His sleep was filled with dreams of his creation. He saw strange things in his dream. He saw animals crawling on four legs, some on two. Some creatures flew with wings, some swam with fins. There were plants of all colors, covering the ground everywhere. Insects buzzed around, dogs barked, birds sang, and human beings called to each other. Everything seemed out of place. The Great Spirit thought he was having a bad dream. He thought, nothing could be this imperfect.
When the Great Spirit awakened, he saw a beaver nibbling on a branch. He realized the world of his dream became his creation. Everything he dreamed about came true. When he saw the beaver make his home, and a dam to provide a pond for his family to swim in, he then knew every thing has it's place, and purpose in the time to come.
It has been told among our people from generation to generation. We must not question our dreams. They are our creation."
In a way, this also corresponds to the very first teachings of the Dhammapadda in Buddhism, supposedly based entirely on the words of the Buddha, which states, "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world."
Except, of course, the thoughts are not separated into beings, but rather it would be the vision of the eternal oneness in this context. Certainly, there are many statements affirming a single truth, if there is any truth left in this universe from the beginning.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Posts: 4,587
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Re: Proofs of Varying Religions [Re: Ravus]
#8682594 - 07/25/08 11:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The segments of scriptures that you have mentioned are all very intriguing, but I think calling them a proof is a stretch. As Diploid said, this could be a proof if it stated something more specific, like the number of chromosomes in a typical human being. Democritus correctly concluded that the universe was made up of a number of invisibly small particles (although, presently, it seems he was wrong that these particles were indivisible). The process by which he arrived at this conclusion was purely speculative, yet nobody refers to Democritus as a divine messenger. Instead we say that he merely "got lucky", "was very insightful", or use some other cliche to describe the development of his ancient theory. Similarly, the Qu'ran stating that the world was formed from gases is indeed a correct statement according to our current knowledge about astronomy, but that does not indicate that this knowledge was handed down from a divine being. A divine messenger is one possibility of how this scripture originated, but certainly not the only one.
Nevertheless, this scripture is interesting to ponder and definitely should make atheists and non-believers wonder "What if?"
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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And what happened to nihilism, hopelessness, meaninglessness, and despair? 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,518
Loc: underbelly
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Waiting for the third act.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
And what happened to nihilism, hopelessness, meaninglessness, and despair?
You have to be able to play any side of an argument, otherwise you could lose out on some excellent opportunities to play devil's advocate. 
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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