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 hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
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i think you jst got hung up on the "seeing" part. its more a relization that it exists, rather than a physical here it is i front of you to physical type of seeing. love is an invisble concept, yet you have see people exhibiting it and it can be shown to you.
as for the christian beliefs and values, IMHO its all about respecting everyone and everything around you in the world with all your heart to the best of your abilities, and not taking things for granted. seemingly universal themes really, no matter what religion yo choose to follow. and that is something that the natives of any land can and should live by, regardless of whether they are aware of jesus, moses, buddha, confucius, or any other philosipher or religous figure.
the rest is just stuff to make the religon more appealing to people. just a big "HEY COME TO MY PLACE OF WORSHIP." and unfortunately so many important messages can be lost this way, by compromising its integrity in order to appeal to a braoder spectrum of people.
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 24 days, 1 hour
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 Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8675200 - 07/24/08 05:11 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Can't make a religion from just "love thy neighbour" so all the other bollocks gets tacked on.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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 eve69
--=..Did Adamand ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 2,114
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To the thread starter, Christianity starts and stops with the human mind just as all faiths do. More than that a person just cannot rely on.
Or else one finds some truth that they FEEL extends beyond the ends of the package, and that then they might consider religious conviction. Beyond the package even those of conviction really still cannot answer beyond their hopes and dreams.
Doesn't matter who they were or what they wished to believe. Now if you feel some religious conviction deep down inside then you're not really caring so much about heaven and hell as you're right where you should be one way or the other and nothing else would be fitting, so you have faith in the present as if things are working out, unless of course your religion is nihilism or hedonism, but even then, one could imagine or feel the conviction that materialism itself is the greatest good and take heart in that.
Anything seemingly reasonable starts and stops with the mind. Think on that!
So then one is really always doing a mind training and why? Because human wisdom generally teaches that moral fortitude is valuable. Buddhists are calling it karma, and saying that one is their own phenomena and so they should take note of what they produce starting with their own mind.
Chrsitians are also teaching pretty much the same thing but with that eternalistic difference as based in notions of heavens and hells that last forever.
But one should know that just from the basic level of understanding that nothing of form can be permanent.
What seems to be permanent sometimes are people's erroneous attitudes and prejudices. Talk about living in hells. Hells are just places of hate.
I have already experienced heavens myself. Last Sunday in fact when I was getting really buzzed at the barbecue and the sky was clean and big dark clouds were hanging in the air looking like battleships and there was this cool breeze for such a hot day. And everyone was high and smiling, of course it was a hurricane party like we do here. In NOLA. Even now....
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 12,761
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: zouden]
#8675333 - 07/24/08 06:54 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Obviously those who lead lives of love and compassion are rewarded for their conduct while they are still alive, and those who lead immoral lives invariably suffer a hellish existence throughout, and that Heaven is not some holy piece of cheese at the end of the maze.
What a great interpretation. But I would have thought the bible would make multiple references to heaven being an afterlife (though perhaps Jesus himself never said that). Hmm..
He talked about 'eternal life' a lot, which I suspect refers to the timeless quality of living mindfully and deliberately; chronological time is a peripheral illusion created only by our thoughts. The problem is that it is impossible to know what Jesus really said and didn't say. By reading the gospels you can get a pretty good idea of what he was all about, but you can't really know what has been added, subtracted, exaggerated, mistranslated or misinterpreted. But read it, and a pattern emerges. It seems to me he was trying to teach nothing essentially different than what Buddha taught; to live without suffering.
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-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
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 zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 1,927
Loc: Australia
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8675415 - 07/24/08 07:30 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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So even if a gospel mentions the afterlife, it could just be the author adding his own words.
Thanks for that, I'll remember it next time I get in an argument about heaven 
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9/11 was sketchy but I mean come on
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: zouden]
#8676730 - 07/24/08 03:09 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Actually, Allah is the REAL god.
He beat Yahweh in a game of 'Rockem Sockem Robots'.
You're all fucked.
~Monk
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palmersc
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Oklahoma
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8677324 - 07/24/08 05:57 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
bluegold said:
I love compassionately appreciating all belief systems that promote love and peace. If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven? I am asking this question not to provide myself reassure in my decision to not believe in the Christian God. Only to trying and understand what other people believe. Further, what about those people who lead a moral life but have never even heard of the Christian God, do these people deserve a spot in eternal bliss?
On a human level I see where you are coming from. About this time last year my human self centered world view came crashing down like a house of cards. The parable about where you build your house in Matthew 7:24-27 sums up my spiritual journey.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:24-27
I spent all my time building upon the sand because that's all I knew how to do. God was not impressed with what I could do for him or anybody else. We don't earn anything in his kingdom. We choose to receive it as a gift. Really I wasn't even capable of choosing to accept his gift without his help. In human terms I believe we have a choice, but God has settled it in my mind that he chose me first.
If you ever catch a glimpse of how depraved you really are and the light brings to the surface the darkness of your heart, you will cry out for God and Jesus will give you peace which surpasses understanding or you will run and hide and burn with hatred for God.
The fact is there are many who call themselves believers out there who are not representing God's kingdom truthfully. It is my belief that since Jesus is the way, it is only natural that it will be the most perverted and twisted in some cases as well. Anything even resembling truth will be attacked and infiltrated by lies. I believe this universe has two forces at work in it and good always prevails over evil ultimately. Satan is at work in this world and has blurred the line between right and wrong so much that many on this board will tell you right and wrong do not exist. I remember believing the same thing myself. You may not yet be as deceived as I was.
I think the most dangerous place to be is complacent and apathetic while basing your beliefs on what others are saying. I never even gave the Bible a real chance because of all the slander I heard towards it. Be honest with God and tell him about your doubts.
“God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6). He may just kick your proud door in like he did me.
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: palmersc]
#8677427 - 07/24/08 06:38 PM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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Satan is at work in this world and has blurred the line between right and wrong so much that many on this board will tell you right and wrong do not exist. I remember believing the same thing myself. You may not yet be as deceived as I was.
When the Church of Christ painted the serpent in the Garden as Satan himself... Big fuck up, imo. That was a Bold move. Little backwards on the matter.
I am convinced that there is a force alive against The Church. I commend its action in liberating the human spirit from the grips of organized men. I know that this force is called God.
Proud is humble's brother. They high five sometimes.
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palmersc
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Oklahoma
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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My problem in accepting the gospel upon first hearing it was that I wanted something that I didn't see in the people presenting it. I also didn't know how to accept it if I chose to do so. I didn't press the issue too far because soon I thought I had found all the answers in mushrooms and I viewed Christianity as an archaic farce. That has changed not because I was smooth talked into accepting a doctrine. God intervened or else I'd still be a critic.
Ironically the psychedelics that I advocated for a couple years turned out to be my undoing. I was psychotic for 6 weeks after smoking some bud. I stopped taking the medication they gave me a couple of months later, and then about 6 months after that in March I had another psychotic break worse than the first. I hadn't done any drugs for about 9 months. It lasted about a month before the medication drowned it out.
A lot of weird stuff has happened to me and I think I remember you posting about a website of yours dedicated to some of the crazy stuff I'm talking about. Right now I am on medication and not sure if I am schizophrenic or bipolar and without Jesus I'd probably be severely depressed right now.
I am in a new town and looking for a new church. I am a bit uneasy when I meet new people and I remember what it was like when I went to church as an unbeliever. A lot of it seems phony, but I know Jesus is the real deal.
As far as Satan goes, "He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) I believe that he played a role in the garden.
I know what you mean about the organized church though. I think the sad state of the American church along with the abundant misinformation on the web is deceiving a lot of people.
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Jawofmalak
Friendly Stranger
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Florida, Orange
Last seen: 10 days, 23 hours
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Quote:
BrainChemistry said:
Quote:
Romans 1:20 says it clearly; "From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God."
Are you kidding me? This is honestly the most arrogant, self-centered, completely ignorant quote I have ever heard from the Bible.
How are a people living on another continent, in those days it might as well have been a different planet, supposed to have any idea of Christian beliefs and values? How can they be held responsible for their lack of knowledge?
Obviously, people CANNOT clearly see his invisible qualities or they would fucking SEE it and know it, not be praying to mother earth and the animals.
And WTF bible, you just said the qualities were invisible...how the hell are you supposed to see them? You just contradicted yourself, jackasses.
Christians believe in two types of revelation, divine revelation and natural revelation. God makes his presence know thru natural revelation, but makes himself known thru special revelation. So what romans is saying here is that no one can deny God's existence, not that everyone should know Christian doctrine.
mainstream Christianity is a one way path. either you believe in jesus or you burn in hell. Doesn't matter how good you are, because "all our works (good deeds) are as filthy rags (menstrual rags)" Isaiah 64:6. And ten on top of that you have to follow all of God's arbitrary laws. If you stick your thign in a man's pooper, the very Creator of the universe will "not know you, oh worker of lawlessness" Matt: 7 21-23. the thing that a lot of christiand don't understand is that they too are bound to the torah, "Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill. For verily I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the torah, till all be fulfilled." So that means no shellfish, no pork, wearing a four cornered garment, ect. If you willfully break any of these, you will be cast to hell. But that's not it. The torah is ambiguous towards how to fulfill the commandments. It will tell you to do something, while giving you words without definitions. For example it tells you to wear teffillin, what is teffillin? No one knows. the only place you can find what tefillin is, is in the talmud. And jesus was adamantly against the talmud's oral law. So you're faced with a quandary, either you become a legalist and are going to hell, or your an antinomianist and are going to hell. I think jesus is the only oen that got saved.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
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backfromthedead
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: palmersc]
#8678121 - 07/24/08 09:51 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Interesting.
I've been through similar issues...
Its cool that you know Jesus is the real deal. That part of you will get you out every time. But I don't think we need a Jesus to realize OUR own nature. We need a Lucifer to be honest about who we are... I feel like gravitating towards an extreme sets you up for a fall.
What meds are you on...?? If you don't mind me asking.
Deception originates within the church, imo. How could a religious institution deny fundamental religious experience from the start...?? ...And call this Satan...??
Mushrooms sent me for a loop, for sure. But I feel thats the result. I value what I've learned. I will do them again. They were also my undoing. I in fact needed to be undone.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 6,111
Loc: South Florida
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 Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8678290 - 07/24/08 10:42 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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From whom do you want to know Christ? The ONLY source is from deep within your own psyche (soul). Do you want to listen to 21st century religious fanatics who have continued to perpetuate a theology that was engineered by the Nicean 'fathers' over a millennia ago. Are you aware that there are other theologies that were NOT designed for ignorant, illiterate, pre-logical minded people, and had no Roman imperialism behind them? Today's concrete, material-minded fundamentalists are the most dangerous and ignorant people on our planet.
Christ is the mind of the Logos. It isn't a commododity given by a Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky, it is an ever-present Reality which must be realized as ever-present, or it is nothing at all.
One does not 'go' to Heaven - Heaven is not a 'place,' it is a term used by the author Matthew because as a conservative Jew of his time, he did not want to write the Name of God (as in "Kingdom of God") so he wrote euphemistically. You are talking about union with God, and that only happens after one realizes that one's nature as 'a' being isn't separated by walls from the "Ground of Being" which is God. Realize this and you have the mind of the Logos, of Christ. Otherwise, you are just buying ideas, mental constuctions called doctrine and dogma, which perish with the rest of our mortality. This is the Gnostic take on Christ. A position which undercuts all of organized religion and places full responsibility on those who really want to Know what is real and true for themselves, and have begun to awaken from the power-craving deceit of what has passed for Christianity since the Gnostic Christians were silenced by blood and fire by the so-called Christians who appropriated Christianity for their own imperialistic agendas. Truth is humbling. Realization results in humility, humility in morality. Make no mistake about it. Religious fanatics are behind the majority of atrocities in this world.
Unlearn everything you've been taught and pick up a copy of the Gospel According to Thomas. Read commentaries on Thomas to help you understand that it represents a completely different Christian theology which may even predate the oldest gospel account by Mark. There is no crucifixion or vicarious sacrifice theology - a sacrifice that alleges to supernaturally save you from your 'sins' (hamartia - 'missing the mark,' as an archery metaphor for inauthentic living) two millennia later. I am a righteous man, and I did not inherit Original Sin. THAT doctrine was invented by Augustine of Hippo to make everyone believe that they absolutely needed to receive the sacraments in church or go to eternal hell - and so they had to tithe and pay for their salvation. What a horrible scam. Jesus did not believe in Original Sin, and having studied Christian theology for the last 30 years AFTER having received a Masters in Theological Studies from a reputable Methodist seminary, I'm suggesting you forget all the lies and bullshit doctrines and start again. That is what being born again really means. The entire Nag Hammadi library was discovered in 1945, buried by lovers of truth (God bless 'em) who had to hide this treasure from the rabid fundamentalists of their day. "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!"
GOD WANTS SPIRITUAL FRUIT, NOT RELIGIOUS NUTS!
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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Senor_Hongos
Stranger
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 3,176
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Yes, it's true, this is a debate.
And it resembles  much more than 
How nice it is to see. 
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Amanitas kill more people than all other mushrooms put together, so an ID of some to be eaten must be correct. An ID based on a photo on the Internets is not reliable enough to potentially risk your life on. ToxicMan
Beginner's Guide to Mushroom name pronunciation
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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I'm suggesting you forget all the lies and bullshit doctrines and start again
That needs to be coming out of a megaphone...
Tough one to swallow.
Do you see what I mean?
You stare at me like a vitamin
On the surface you hate,
but you know you need me.
I'll come dressed as any pill you deem fit.
Whatever helps you swallow truth
all the more easily.
And I wonder, will you digest me?
Into the sleep machine I won't plug in,
in fact I'd rather die before I will comply.
To you, my friend,
I write the reason I still live,
'cause in my mind it's set the vitamin is ripe to give
Coming closer to another 2000 years
you and I will pry
the closed eye of the sleep machine
'Vitamin' -Incubus
(wrong album cover, but fitting...  )
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Senor_Hongos
Stranger
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 3,176
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Quote:
backfromthedead said:
Tough one to swallow.
Do you see what I mean?
So's this one:
Do you see what I see
A star, a star
Dancing in the night
With a tail as big as a kite
With a tail as big as a kite
Said the little lamb to the shepard boy
Do you hear what I hear
Ringing through the sky shepard boy
Do you hear what I hear
A song, a song
High above the tree
With a voice as big as the sea
With a voice as big as the sea
Said the shepard boy to the mighty king
Do you know what I know
In your palace wall mighty king
Do you know what I know
A child, a child
Shivers in the cold
Let us bring him silver and gold
Let us bring him silver and gold
Said the king to the people everywhere
Listen to what I say
Pray for peace people everywhere
Listen to what I say
The child, the child
Sleeping in the night
He will bring us goodness and light
He will bring us goodness and light
The child, the child
Sleeping in the night
He will bring us goodness and light
Correct album cover, and fitting. 
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Amanitas kill more people than all other mushrooms put together, so an ID of some to be eaten must be correct. An ID based on a photo on the Internets is not reliable enough to potentially risk your life on. ToxicMan
Beginner's Guide to Mushroom name pronunciation
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 12,761
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Last seen: 10 minutes, 29 seconds
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
GOD WANTS SPIRITUAL FRUIT, NOT RELIGIOUS NUTS!
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-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
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Jawofmalak
Friendly Stranger
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Florida, Orange
Last seen: 10 days, 23 hours
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I disagree with your gnostic interpretation of the Christ figure. Yeshua (the Hebrew name of Jesus) lived during the golden age of Torah observance. During that time a party called the Pharisees had become tired of the shallow interpretations of the Sadducees. So during this time the pharisees where seen as great teachers, holding on the the letter and spirit of the law. During this time the Jewish community was fiercely anti-pagan, and extremely anti-roman (they where being occupied). From observing Yeshua's behavior in the gospels, he probably himself was a pharisee. He was a strict observer of the laws, and believed they had to be kept in letter and in spirit, the fundamental beliefs of the pharisees. Yeshua, a Jewish pharisee who had messianic hopes, would not borrow from foreign ideologies like gnosticism in order to make his claims. When you look at the new testament, it is completely over laid with Tanack ("old testament") references and quotations, in order to make a case for his messiahship. And plus, all the gnostic writings are over 2 centuries too old to have been written by any of the apostles. The gospel of Thomas was written any where from 150 BCE to 200 BCE.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
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backfromthedead
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Jawofmalak]
#8679957 - 07/25/08 11:02 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Yeshua (the Hebrew name of Jesus) lived during the golden age of Torah observance.
This is a faith issue...?? Or you can prove this...??
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Jawofmalak
Friendly Stranger
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Florida, Orange
Last seen: 10 days, 23 hours
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It's recorded in the Talmud of the Jews. They considered the 1st century to be their golden age in Torah observance, it was after all the period in which rabbinic Judaism was started. And during this golden age, Jesus preached his message, which was a very pharisee massage.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
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Buben
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/08
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Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8680070 - 07/25/08 11:37 AM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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I am really sorry for not reading all post before replying, but I just registered, I haven't slept for 20h, and I have spent over a year now on meditating and thinking about those kind of stuff so I am too eager to reply, beside question was about my view.
First of all, I am Christian too, Orthodox though, and Orthodox church generally is more liberal then let's say Catholic, liberal not in the sense of deviating form the bible but in the sense that there are tendency to interprete the meaning and general pattern in bible instead of taking it literally.
But there is still a huge flaw, old testament, I mean wtf is it doing in the bible? First of all it is where the majority of contradictary crap is, and second of all it is pre-Jesus Jewish religion which as far as I understand Jesus came to Israel of all places to fix, that is correct all the crap. If I remember correct there is in beginning of New testament something that is or can be interpreted (by me) as that Jesus was born in Israel to correct the horible wrong way of Jews, and it is also therefore Jesus only later said that it might apply to people outside Israel, remember that it does't say why Jews were "Chosen people", I'v been chosen many times in the class by the cheacher to stand in the corner.
Not to go too deeply into that I recommend if you have paper version of bible, locate the New Testament and rip out the rest put it into a folder and write Judaism on it, now you have two books.
When you have done that, think about which one is important to you, if you still chose biblel, then read it again, and you notice how different it is, and there is really nothing to worry about.
Two important things Jesus said:
"It does't matter what goes into your mouth, it is important what comes out of it." (Quoting from memory, might not be literal)
"You can sin against me, you can sin against father, but if you sin agains holy spirit you will bun in hell" (And I believe this is the only time Jesus mentions hell)
No one knows what holy spirit is, but majority agree that the holy spirit is the human spirit, that is the sole, mind basically one self. Catholics might say holy spirit is the spirit that made Maria pregnant, but it really makes no sense considering Jesus's words.
I wear a cross and I call me Christian, but i also proudly ripped out old Testamente without being afraid of being burned in hell because Christianity is about Jesus and nothing else, and if you read about Jesus teachings and apply your head you find that (judjing form what you wrote about yourself) you have nothing to be anctious about you are probably more of a Christian then those priests.
Read _new_ testamet!
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