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 bluegold
hobbyhunter
 
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Texas, south Houston
Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours
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 Question about Chrisianity
#8672485 - 07/23/08 03:48 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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I have posed this question many times to friends and family but always seem to get the same answer. Please share your views.
I have been taught Christianity since I was a young man be have seen far to many flaws in its teaching and history to consider it truth. Still I lead a life that is embolden with Christian values. I have read the teachings of Jesus,Buddha and many others and have a collective view on life. I live a life dedicated to preserving all forms of life. I try to do right for all people and do not allow my personal gain to hinder these beliefs. I love compassionately appreciating all belief systems that promote love and peace. If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven? I am asking this question not to provide myself reassure in my decision to not believe in the Christian God. Only to trying and understand what other people believe. Further, what about those people who lead a moral life but have never even heard of the Christian God, do these people deserve a spot in eternal bliss?
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 Cameron
perma-stone
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 2,143
Loc: Canada
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8672676 - 07/23/08 04:32 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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I've asked Christians similar questions, namely whether or not ancient Native Americans who could not possibly have received the gospel of Jesus would be damned to Hell.
I figured that the interwebz would be able to help me out, so I found a similar question posed on a Christian forum here. This is what a Native American turned Christian had to say:
Quote:
I may be able to shedd some light on this for you, without seeming predjudiced~ since I am enrolled as a member of the Citzen Band Potawatome Nation. The tribe I am a member of worshipped the creation in all their historical background. In many indian celebrations they still practice the ritual dances performed to worship this planet~ calling on the four winds and the corners of the earth for provision and protection, instead of God the Creator.
Because of this~ idolitry~ the tribe lost the lands that the Lord had blessed them with, as well as much of their culture, and few full-blooded Potawatome Indians still exist today. They were part of the Trail of Tears when many indian nations were gathered and moved onto reservations.
The Father has ordained men to live in certain locations and times, yet still He certainly is able to be known thru His creation. Romans 1:20 says it clearly; "From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." NLT
The creator many of these ancesters of mine (without saving faith in Christ) often believe in today is mother earth. None of them will enter heaven unless they are saved.
Is God unjust in allowing this terrible punishment to come on my indian ancestors? Well, if He had never intervened, many would never have turned from their idolitry to Jesus. Like me.
What a merciful God.  It's no wonder 'God' stole their land and 'gave it' to the white man through bloodshed. They were worshiping the Earth respectfully and living within their means!  God must have been pissed!
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 zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,341
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 54 seconds
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8672730 - 07/23/08 04:44 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven?
No. You can only get into heaven if you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. If you're catholic you also have to be repent your sins (also the Original Sin that you inherited).
If you're one of the more moderate churches you don't have to worry so much, some of them even say that everyone gets into heaven regardless of their belief.
If you're Jehovah's witness you can't get in at all because they believe there is only room for 144,000 people in heaven and it's been full since 1918. Though eventually there'll be a kind of heaven on earth (probably won't be as good though).
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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Senor_Hongos
Pseudo-Mycologist
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 4,888
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: zouden]
#8672815 - 07/23/08 05:16 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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It could be dissected more than that, but yeah, those are workable answers.
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Amanitas kill more people than all other mushrooms put together, so an ID of some to be eaten must be correct. An ID based on a photo on the Internets is not reliable enough to potentially risk your life on. ToxicMan
Beginner's Guide to Mushroom name pronunciation
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 823
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8672916 - 07/23/08 05:50 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
bluegold said:
I have posed this question many times to friends and family but always seem to get the same answer. Please share your views.
I have been taught Christianity since I was a young man be have seen far to many flaws in its teaching and history to consider it truth. Still I lead a life that is embolden with Christian values. I have read the teachings of Jesus,Buddha and many others and have a collective view on life. I live a life dedicated to preserving all forms of life. I try to do right for all people and do not allow my personal gain to hinder these beliefs. I love compassionately appreciating all belief systems that promote love and peace. If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven? I am asking this question not to provide myself reassure in my decision to not believe in the Christian God. Only to trying and understand what other people believe. Further, what about those people who lead a moral life but have never even heard of the Christian God, do these people deserve a spot in eternal bliss?
Speaking as a Christian (sovereign grace, calvinistic) you will not get into heaven. No matter how good someone is, it is simply short of the righteous demands of God.
No one deserves a spot in eternal bliss, and it is not unjust to not save anyone. The evidence of salvation is the gift of the faith of the gospel, and this only happens by God's own will and mercy alone.
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8673055 - 07/23/08 06:23 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Fivepointer has the correct view for a Christian...he speaks pure Christian doctrine and is correct in that fashion. This should just emphasize to all readers how fucked up that whole bogus system is. If there is a heaven and a hell as in fivepointer's world, I want to go to hell...all of my friends will be there trying to practice universal love and acceptance. Even hell could be heaven under those circumstances.
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Pencil-Vein-Ya
Last seen: 5 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: fivepointer]
#8673074 - 07/23/08 06:28 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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let's (for matter of my arguement) assume that jesus WAS infact the son of god. in order for the gospels to be wholy(for gove the pun) true they must have come directly from him by way of god to be so. And for this this they must be carried to you without the possiblity of traveling through a corruptable, fickle median (aka mortal man). and since as we can plainly tell jesus is not alive to day to speak directly to us theese words and ideas must travel through a medium in order to reach us (the bible). however unless jesus him self hand wrote the exact bible you are reading that too has travel the corruptable median that is man. therefore while theese word can not be proven as completely false, they also can not be proven wholy true, therefore must be accepted as likley to be partailly or conditionally true at best. for if it contains even one falacy or ommition of truth it can not be said that it is the truth, the whole truth nothing but the truth.
some christians have attempted to claim that you must accept jesus into your heart before you can see the unadaultered truth. but if i a take that leap of faith before i know the truth do i not run the risk of worshipping a "false idol"?
Accept what you don't know and know everything you accept.
A message too often missed by christians and no christians alike. which is a message ironically i found not because of but within the story of the garden of eden, and man's ultimate "fall from grace"
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There are thinkers,
&
There are doers,
Only those who are both get anything done.
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Cameron
perma-stone
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 2,143
Loc: Canada
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8673092 - 07/23/08 06:31 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Do Jesus' words support fivepointer's answer?
"He who knoweth not my name will be punished for denying my fame - Mark 4:20" ?
I thought Jesus was cool, man... 
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Cameron]
#8673105 - 07/23/08 06:34 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Jesus is only part of the Bible. Remember our old friends in the Old Testament? In any case Jesus was a man, and to trust the words of a man blindly is folly.
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/23/08 06:35 PM)
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Cameron
perma-stone
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 2,143
Loc: Canada
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8673132 - 07/23/08 06:41 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Oh, I don't know. I figured he was the most important part of the Bible. All of this 'Jesus, our Lord', 'Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ' stuff almost puts extra emphasis on his words. 
I don't pretend to understand any of it. I just nod, smile, and let them get on with their worship. 
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Cameron]
#8673154 - 07/23/08 06:46 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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An eye for an eye.... that's the good old Christian way!!!
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Pencil-Vein-Ya
Last seen: 5 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8673155 - 07/23/08 06:46 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Jesus is only part of the Bible. Remember our old friends in the Old Testament? In any case Jesus was a man, and to trust the words of a man blindly is folly.
the same logic should be applied there as we'll, but thanks for point out my omision of that lil fact.... just another case that man's word can not be trusted completely for even unintetitionally we create misleading, deception and false "truths".
but i definately agree with you on blind trust. I'd say that blind trust is like trusting a blind man to drive you home safely. you may for somereason arrive at home unharmed but its highly unlikely.
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There are thinkers,
&
There are doers,
Only those who are both get anything done.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 13,826
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Last seen: 42 seconds
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8673393 - 07/23/08 07:39 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
bluegold said:
If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven? I am asking this question not to provide myself reassure in my decision to not believe in the Christian God. Only to trying and understand what other people believe. Further, what about those people who lead a moral life but have never even heard of the Christian God, do these people deserve a spot in eternal bliss?
What I believe is that contemporary Christians don't know at all what Jesus meant by the Kingdom of Heaven. His cryptic message was lost on most of his followers, and it is that fundamentalist misinterpretation that spread faster than the intended teaching, and has survived in many bastardized forms to this day.
Obviously those who lead lives of love and compassion are rewarded for their conduct while they are still alive, and those who lead immoral lives invariably suffer a hellish existence throughout, and that Heaven is not some holy piece of cheese at the end of the maze.
I'm not so sure your non-belief in a Christian God is a choice anyway. You believe what makes sense to you. I would guess most Christians say they believe even though they wouldn't if they were being honest with themselves, like you have had the courage to be.
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-oOo-
"My children," said an old man to his boys scared by a figure in the dark entry, "my children, you will never see any thing worse than yourselves." As in dreams, so in the scarcely less fluid events of the world, every man sees himself as colossal, without knowing that it is himself. The good, compared to the evil which he sees, is as his own good to his own evil.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Spiritual Laws"
-oOo-
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Huehuecoyotl
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 9,165
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8673470 - 07/23/08 07:59 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Kingdom of Heaven = Here and now.
Quote:
"No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." -- our buddy Jesus
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"A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting." - Carlos Castaneda
www.warriorfusion.org
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Pencil-Vein-Ya
Last seen: 5 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8673524 - 07/23/08 08:13 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Very well stated WhiskeyClone.
So despite our disagreement on the whole happines,acceptance,contentment issue. ill be sending you 
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There are thinkers,
&
There are doers,
Only those who are both get anything done.
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8673624 - 07/23/08 08:45 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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What the church doesn't teach is Christ was a Snaky motherfucker.
Mel Gibson had it right in Passion of the Christ with that head on a swivel... "Tell on me Judas...??" Christ face and that hypnotic look in his eyes...
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bluegold
hobbyhunter
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Texas, south Houston
Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: hamandcheese]
#8673628 - 07/23/08 08:45 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Thank you for your input on this topic. I try and understand the Christian religion because it seems so many have lost all sense of its true menaing (at least what I interpert). If Jesus was not the son of God but a mortal man trying to give humans wonderful idea on how live their lives, would this make him any less great? He was spreading love and peace at the risk of tortue and death. Knowing he was not eternal would make his message that much more significant. Despite the corruption surronding his message today I find there is something to gain from him.
I find the point of view that only those who accept Jesus as or savor the rights to heaven. Despite that fact I don't even believe in an afterlife. Seems so cold. If this is the case I must say that is a God I would not want to worship anyway.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,341
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 54 seconds
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8674704 - 07/24/08 01:07 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Obviously those who lead lives of love and compassion are rewarded for their conduct while they are still alive, and those who lead immoral lives invariably suffer a hellish existence throughout, and that Heaven is not some holy piece of cheese at the end of the maze.
What a great interpretation. But I would have thought the bible would make multiple references to heaven being an afterlife (though perhaps Jesus himself never said that). Hmm..
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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cake is a lie
ego soup
Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Mn
Last seen: 4 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8674965 - 07/24/08 02:18 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
bluegold said:
I have posed this question many times to friends and family but always seem to get the same answer. Please share your views.
I have been taught Christianity since I was a young man be have seen far to many flaws in its teaching and history to consider it truth. Still I lead a life that is embolden with Christian values. I have read the teachings of Jesus,Buddha and many others and have a collective view on life. I live a life dedicated to preserving all forms of life. I try to do right for all people and do not allow my personal gain to hinder these beliefs. I love compassionately appreciating all belief systems that promote love and peace. If I am completely wrong and there is a god and Jesus was his son on Earth. Would I get into Heaven? I am asking this question not to provide myself reassure in my decision to not believe in the Christian God. Only to trying and understand what other people believe. Further, what about those people who lead a moral life but have never even heard of the Christian God, do these people deserve a spot in eternal bliss?
for you to go to heaven acording to christian faith you must believe in god and must believe that jesus is the son of god and that he rose from the dead and asended into heaven. you also have to show compasion and love to your neighbor even if he is a bastard (this is a metaphore for every one, they dont have to live next to you) and try to follow what jesus tought people.
alot of people think christians are crazy people who are ignorant (many are dont get me wrong) and many people who come down on them are too because most of them take the bible word for word, which is stupid because the bible is very metaphorical hell jesus used tons of metaphores. take adam and eve for example. many people think this is a stupid story that explains how humans were created. its not that at all but a story of first sin where eve ignoring god and giving into tempation from the serpent eats the apple. its also a reference to the greek belief that all women are not trust worthy and are all serpents.
also most of the old testement are stories that were told and retold for generations by the jewish tribes because they were illiterate and didnt write things down. people who point to the bible and say that shell fish is a sin and that homosexuality will cause you to get a straight ticket to hell are idiots because these were not preteached by jesus but are clan laws that help keep order in society ie (people dying from food poisoning). these also kept the church and state united and powerful. when it comes to it as a christian i disregarde the church because there role gives them power and they have shown in the past and will repeat trying to control peoples lives just like our current govs war on drugs does
Edited by cake is a lie (07/24/08 02:40 AM)
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BrainChemistry
Duplicarius
Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 1,660
Loc: Mountains of N. America
Last seen: 5 hours, 17 minutes
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Quote:
Romans 1:20 says it clearly; "From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God."
Are you kidding me? This is honestly the most arrogant, self-centered, completely ignorant quote I have ever heard from the Bible.
How are a people living on another continent, in those days it might as well have been a different planet, supposed to have any idea of Christian beliefs and values? How can they be held responsible for their lack of knowledge?
Obviously, people CANNOT clearly see his invisible qualities or they would fucking SEE it and know it, not be praying to mother earth and the animals.
And WTF bible, you just said the qualities were invisible...how the hell are you supposed to see them? You just contradicted yourself, jackasses.
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"I don't want to fuck with anybody's head here," Hawking told the assembled scientists via his voice-simulation device, "but if time goes sideways as well as forward, there might be, like, other versions of this reality, where, say, the Roman Empire is still in charge and stuff."
"By the way," Hawking added, "ever think about what'd happen if you, say, went back in time and accidentally killed your own younger self? Man, that shit would be so fucked up."
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Pencil-Vein-Ya
Last seen: 5 hours, 16 minutes
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i think you jst got hung up on the "seeing" part. its more a relization that it exists, rather than a physical here it is i front of you to physical type of seeing. love is an invisble concept, yet you have see people exhibiting it and it can be shown to you.
as for the christian beliefs and values, IMHO its all about respecting everyone and everything around you in the world with all your heart to the best of your abilities, and not taking things for granted. seemingly universal themes really, no matter what religion yo choose to follow. and that is something that the natives of any land can and should live by, regardless of whether they are aware of jesus, moses, buddha, confucius, or any other philosipher or religous figure.
the rest is just stuff to make the religon more appealing to people. just a big "HEY COME TO MY PLACE OF WORSHIP." and unfortunately so many important messages can be lost this way, by compromising its integrity in order to appeal to a braoder spectrum of people.
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There are thinkers,
&
There are doers,
Only those who are both get anything done.
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: bluegold]
#8675200 - 07/24/08 05:11 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Can't make a religion from just "love thy neighbour" so all the other bollocks gets tacked on.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 2,229
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To the thread starter, Christianity starts and stops with the human mind just as all faiths do. More than that a person just cannot rely on.
Or else one finds some truth that they FEEL extends beyond the ends of the package, and that then they might consider religious conviction. Beyond the package even those of conviction really still cannot answer beyond their hopes and dreams.
Doesn't matter who they were or what they wished to believe. Now if you feel some religious conviction deep down inside then you're not really caring so much about heaven and hell as you're right where you should be one way or the other and nothing else would be fitting, so you have faith in the present as if things are working out, unless of course your religion is nihilism or hedonism, but even then, one could imagine or feel the conviction that materialism itself is the greatest good and take heart in that.
Anything seemingly reasonable starts and stops with the mind. Think on that!
So then one is really always doing a mind training and why? Because human wisdom generally teaches that moral fortitude is valuable. Buddhists are calling it karma, and saying that one is their own phenomena and so they should take note of what they produce starting with their own mind.
Chrsitians are also teaching pretty much the same thing but with that eternalistic difference as based in notions of heavens and hells that last forever.
But one should know that just from the basic level of understanding that nothing of form can be permanent.
What seems to be permanent sometimes are people's erroneous attitudes and prejudices. Talk about living in hells. Hells are just places of hate.
I have already experienced heavens myself. Last Sunday in fact when I was getting really buzzed at the barbecue and the sky was clean and big dark clouds were hanging in the air looking like battleships and there was this cool breeze for such a hot day. And everyone was high and smiling, of course it was a hurricane party like we do here. In NOLA. Even now....
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