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Y'shua ben Miriam was not a Pharisee. He was not schooled as Pharisees were, and the only significant difference in this regard with the Saducees is that the Saducees did not subscribe to belief in Resurrection.
Gnostic thought was pre Y'shua and could be the perspective of Jewish or Pagan philosophy. In fact the Gnostic position, as opposed to the various 2nd century Gnostic schools (Valentinus, Marcion, etc.) is what the Perennial Philosophy (Huxley) has come to mean. If Y'shua belonged to ant sect (and that is unlikely), it was not the Essenes, which excluded women, but the Therapeutae/Therapeutrides that Y'shua's contemporary, Philo of Alexandria wrote about.
Thomas is only pseudo-Gnostic in that it does not embody typical alternative myths, usually involving a demiurge. Thomas is monotheistic if not monistic in its flavor, and may well be an earlier writing than the earliest canonical gospel attributed to Mark. However, some 40 years ago, Morton Smith (Jesus the Magician), discovered a letter in an old monastery written by the church father Clement of Alexandria himself! That letter indicated that there was an esoteric gospel of Mark which circulated in inner circles. He copied the letter,but the original was disappeared for obvious reasons - threatening the existing structure of Christian doctrine.
The Nag Hammadi library was destroyed by the Imperial Roman Catholic authorities to shape history the way THEY wanted it to appear. You are free to disagree with the Gnostic take, but if you haven't read works by Freke & Gandy, then you are not seeing where I am coming from. I have also made it my business to read the ivy-league scholars as well: Hans Jonas, Elaine Pagels, Karen King, not to mention popular writers like Harold Bloom and Tobias Churton. The bottom line is that the mythic stories portrayed as historical events consist of one ENORMOUS lie and deception.
The Gnostic take grasps that the mythic story-lines and symbols are intended to convey an experiential salvation. They also grasp that 'faith' in someone else's experience of God belongs to a 'psychic' level of spirituality, not a 'pneumatic' level. One can come up to speed by reframimg a historical interpretation which flies in the face of reason, with a mythic/symbolic understanding which helps one to attain to the realizations that Y'shua is credited with having realized. Lastly, Y'shua, historical person or not, represents the archetype of the Self, which as Grace Slick once put it lyrically, is "any man's story." A physical resusitation and transmogrification into an 'incorruptible body' only makes some kind of sense if one holds to a heaven in which form exists, and if one relegates such a heaven to a 'place' in a world-view where the earth is flat and heaven lies beyond the 'dome' of the stars. Resurrection remains Mystery.
Even Pagan philosophers of Y'shua's day understood these subtleties without the benfit of science to help them differentiate physics from metaphysics. The resurrection (as well as judgement and ascension motifs) are archetypes that go back to Egypt. Isis suckling Horus is the prototype for the Mary-Jesus image. Y'shua, if responsible for ANY of the things attributed to him in the NT, would have been drawing on Egyptian Mystery religion, by way of the Mosaic Judaism that Y'shua inherited. Moses's (Mose) name is derived from the Egyptian, and Thoth is the god of magick (which he bestowed on Isis). Moses is THE magus of the Tenach, and the Talmud regards Y'shua as a magician as well:
"Thutmose (also rendered Thutmosis, Tuthmose, Tutmosis, Thothmes, Tuthmosis, Djhutmose, etc.) is the name conventionally given to several Egyptian pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty, an Anglicisation of the Egyptian name "Djehuty-mes", usually translated as "Born of the god Thoth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutmose
One can continue to be brain-washed by the church history that was forced on the world through inquisition and crusade, or one can begin to think on one's own and help to create a newer and truer form of Christianity. As J.S. Spong wrote: Christianity Must Change or Die.
-------------------- Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
The difference between the Sadducees and the Pharisees where humongous. The Sadducees did not believe in any of the revelation, except for the Torah, and they did not believe in oral law. This is in huge contract to the Pharisees which believe in in the Ketuvim, or Nevi'im. As such the Pharisees where seen as going back to the old ways. And Yeshua was taught when he was younger, there's actually a section in matthew that tells of Jesus going to the temple and debating and learning with the teacher there. His entire understanding of scripture was pharisaic in nature.
What you're doing is trying to take the understanding of Yeshua as a jewish figure, that was understood in a jewish context, and make some teacher of foreign philosophies (foreign to that time and place). Had he espoused anything similar to what the Gnostic Christians say, he would have been considered an apostate, and killed on the spot for leading Israel away to "foreign gods".
I know about secret mark, but it has no part to play in any of this. we can't use something that we don't know anything about as evidence for anything. And as for the catholic church burning things, yeah i agree with you. they wanted to have control, so they silenced dissent.
While i understand where your coming from, I still think that your taking a religious figure and high jacking him to suit religious needs.
-------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
Quote: backfromthedead said:What meds are you on...?? If you don't mind me asking.
I was taking abilify and it had horrible side effects for me which is why I quit taking it. After the recent psychotic episode I started taking zyprexa 10 mg a day. It has effectively sapped me of any passion and I feel insulated from the world but at least I'm not losing my mind. I kind of need to recoup. The psychiatrists I've seen just write scripts and and send me on my way. The last one said he thought I was paranoid schizophrenic. I will likely keep taking the medication for a few more months and hopefully find somebody who can hold me accountable and make sure I don't slide as far off the deep end as I did last time. I really hope I just had a case of drug induced psychosis, but the fact that it came back after no drug use of any kind makes me think some thing else is going on.
I don't know how much of my problem is spiritual and how much is physical. When I was heavily involved in eastern mysticism and psychedelics I believe that I opened the doors for demons. Some weird things happened in the months after my salvation encounter with Jesus. A few times I woke up in the middle of the night in a panic and cried out for Jesus. With a jolt something left me and I felt at ease and my mind felt as if something had been lifted from it. I heard these things scream as they left sometimes. I believe they were demons and they no longer had jurisdiction.
It was pretty smooth sailing for about 6 months and then I started to get interested in spiritual warfare. Since I know demons to be literally real beings I wanted to do my part in advancing God's kingdom so I prayed night and day for him to make me as dangerous to the kingdom of darkness as possible. Right before the psychotic episode in March I went on a sustained fast and took authority over every dark principality over my apartment complex in Jesus name. Maybe I did this errantly and I was out of my league because the things which followed me verbally consecrating myself to the Lord and declaring war on Satan and his army are not for the faint of heart.
The thing I am not sure of is if the events that followed were caused by my involvement in the spiritual realm or if they happened because I do have a mental illness.
I began to hallucinate pentagrams and goat heads all over the carpet and walls. Thoughts in my head which I believe were not my own filled my head. I had murderous evil thoughts which I have never had. There were voices in my head which kept on soliciting me to bow down and worship Satan. I walked around like this for about a week without letting anybody know what was up with me. I did have a lot of paranoid delusions about other people and situations which were fueled by irrational thoughts.
It's amazing that I finished up my engineering degree and landed a job while going through all this. When interviewing with companies I did all I could to stay focused and not let the assault of troubling thoughts show on the outside.
There is one issue which has troubled me for years and the way that it pans out will shape my beliefs and world view. I have had transgender thoughts for about 12 years. I entertained them for years without it affecting my life. It grew and grew until it threatened to go to far and I started my spiritual quest about 3 years ago full time. Well during this last psychotic episode the thoughts and feelings were stronger and more forceful than ever before. Whether I have a mental illness or not I believe demonic oppression played a role in these thoughts.
I have chosen to follow Jesus and he has made it clear to me that following after transgender thoughts are not for his brethren. I really don't want to go that way either. Right now for the first time since I can remember, the thought of being a girl in no way appeals to me.
There are two variables at work. Medication and God.
If indeed God is changing my heart in this area it will build my faith greatly. I hope it is not just the chemical lobotomy I am experiencing right now.
Jesus has already done so much in changing me from who I was this time last year. I am so grateful to still be alive and have a family that is still behind me. I have studied the scriptures and my belief is that salvation is God's work primarily. All I have to be is on board and prepared to weather the storms. I am betting the ranch on Jesus and I am grateful that he has patience with me when all I feel like I'm doing is slowing him down.
So much is up in the air for me right now and strangely I am at ease. God takes my doubts and worries which I cannot bear and gives me rest. I hope my experiences will be of help to other seekers out there who have journeyed into madness willingly and been stuck there unwillingly.
I was once like you friend. I was actually under the training of a pastor to one day have a flock of my own. But i studied and studied, and without going into detail, I was disillusioned. I left the synagogue and the church forever. It was hard for me but I did it. But that doesn't mean that you should. you believe Jesus saved you? Then follow him with your full heart and soul. And all i say to you is, remember Jesus was a Jew, and the roots of Catholicism are long and all encompassing.
-------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
I'm not attributing anything extra to the figure of Jesus. Look for yourself. I said that in 'this regard' - to my immediate point, about the resurrection, pharisees differred from Saducees. I agree with you, they were quite different. However, resurrection-ascension, as an ultimate condition, taken in the Gnostic sense says that 'The kingdom of God is spread out upon the earth and men see it not,' - it is a 'realized eschatology' in the Thomas writing, and some of that realization slips through into the canonical writings, but they reflect a 'partially realized eschatology' in which Jesus opens the kingdom of God, but its fruition does not happen until a later point in history.
My point is that the kingdom and the resurrection exists here and now, above time. It is a transcendental condition in the Present. 'Lift a rock and I am there, cleave a piece of wood and I am there' (Logion 77 Thomas). The 'End Times' or the End of Time is a potential experience here and now, which is described by a mythic historicity occurring 'in time' as future events. I simply understand the mythic events of the NT as being an exoteric midrashic story. I understand this midrash to be understood esoterically, that is, Gnostically. We find this 'Perennial Philosophy' in Hindu and Buddhist understandings of the Ultimate Reality, and among Egyptian and later Greek Mystery religion (the latter using a psychedelic Kykeon in its organized ritual). Further, the Judaism of Jesus' time had lost sight of the forest for the trees and Jesus re-interpreted, but all mainstream Christianity has to show for it is the exoteric forms not the esoteric meanings. As we said in seminary:
The NT is concealed in the OT, and the OT is revealled in the NT.
However, only the stories are revealed and they have to be understood esoterically or else they remain as little more than puerile miracle stories for children to gasp wide-eyed at. By themselves they have no power to transmute our consciousness other than to instill emotions of hope and fear in heaven and hell. Perfect parenting for the multitudes the church wanted to control, but nothing of true knowledge for the ardent seeker. The Initiatory and Mystery aspect of Jesus needs to be extrapolated, not read into! I'm not claiming that Jesus left Judea for 'secret teachings,' those teachings were available to those with ears to hear. If Nicodemus was so 'hylic' as to ask how he could, a grown man, enter into his mother's womb to be 'born again,' you gotta admit that there were few individuals who were suited for the deeper-than-parabolic teachings reserved for the few - then OR now!
-------------------- Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
True, but I'm not saying that gnosticism has no validity, but what i am saying is that when looking at Jesus's life through the eyeglasses of a Jewish audience, you get nothing near gnosticism. The canonical writings vehemently affirm a bodily resurrection, a bodily Messiah, and a literal heaven and hell. In fact the new testament goes so far in stressing Yeshua's bodily resurrection that it gives the story of doubting Thomas, who touched the resurrected Messiah's hands. In no way can you use the Tanach or Brit Hadasha as a scriptural basis for gnosticism.
-------------------- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha
Quote: MarkostheGnostic said: you gotta admit that there were few individuals who were suited for the deeper-than-parabolic teachings reserved for the few - then OR now!
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." John 9:39
I need a guide or else I would lose my way.
"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." Philippians 3:8- 3:9
Despite Paul's extensive resume, he was fortunate to see that it meant nothing. The truth is not hidden for the elite few to comprehend. Children can enter the kingdom and fellowship with our creator.
Yes, well, I recommend that you read in its entirety John Shelby Spong's Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes, for a much deeper deconstruction of how those words you're referring to were put together and why, with clear documentation. The difference between common sense perceptions and quantum physics would be an apt metaphor. So much biblical language is unconsciously assumed and repeated, along with imagination-based conceptual thought. Try deconstructing your unconscious assumptions first. When your faith survives the reading, and comes up stripped of the barnacles of bullshit that tradition has affixed, you'll thank Spong. This is no Gnostic interpretation, btw, but I'd say it's fundamental.
-------------------- Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
Quote: MarkostheGnostic said: you gotta admit that there were few individuals who were suited for the deeper-than-parabolic teachings reserved for the few - then OR now!
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." John 9:39
I need a guide or else I would lose my way.
I, as egoic-mind, also require guidance, but the words you selected should be prefaced with 'Jesus allegedly said...' There is little evidence to support the historicity of Jesus, but the value of the words attributed to him are invaluble. Instead of a cult dedicated to a personality, homage needs to be given to Wisdom - the feminine aspect of God. Jesus is my Master, even if he never existed. Why? The words - which is exactly what that personality is alleged to have said, as well as the Johannine writings: the word (not capitalized, because I am now aknowledging a trinitarian Godhead any longer). It is yet another creation - of Tertullian and others who followed. The Egyptian trinity of Osirus-Horus-Isis or the NeoPlatonic One-Intellect-World Soul are both predecessors of the Christian trinity. I am a monotheist with monistic leanings. It is obvious that Reality is ONE.
-------------------- Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: TODAY] #8682197 - 07/25/08 10:32 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)
"Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so"
Proof enough for the uneducated masses.
-------------------- What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
well, i believe in god, but not in the conforming to the churches views. I don't consider myself as a member of the church, but I have faith. I don't abide by the rules that they think is right. I think I sound like some emo kid right now. but it's how I feel.
an example of such is "Evolution is true, but god made it happen"
see a happy medium ^_^
--------------------
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: metalmorph] #8684226 - 07/26/08 01:23 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)
Quote: metalmorph said: well, i believe in god, but not in the conforming to the churches views. I don't consider myself as a member of the church, but I have faith. I don't abide by the rules that they think is right. I think I sound like some emo kid right now. but it's how I feel.
an example of such is "Evolution is true, but god made it happen"
see a happy medium ^_^
Faith in what? Yahweh? Jesus Christ? Did jesus bodily return to heaven?
A person should have the right to believe what they wish, but the Christian church and the other major religions have a tendency to put beliefs into the minds of young children and then attempt to restrict them from exploring any other possibilities. Then, these later generations adamantly support these hypotheses from archaic information and stories, beautiful stories, but simply stories from people who thought the world was flat and the blood of a virgin was something on the level of supported slave systems.
Then these ideas remain stagnant, discouraging inquiries into other areas made available by experience and technology, supporting willful ignorance. Then the wars come, the violent games of 'my god can beat up your god'. More bigotry is perpetuated by religion than any other means in the known history of our species, and indubitably the unknown history knocked out of bounds by mostly European crusaders over the past few hundred years.
An idea is wonderful. An idea gives you a place to keep comfort, and something that can move. Static belief, specifically political religion, gives you a place to feel comfort, by excluding others. This is one of the most unfortunate standard of our history.
Maybe god DID make evolution. But what do you mean when you say that? The New Testament god, or the Old Testament god? I can't for the life of me see how they could be the same thing. When you have faith, is it bound by word?
~Monk
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06 Posts: 884 Loc: A Tree
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Re: Question about Chrisianity [Re: metalmorph] #8684270 - 07/26/08 01:32 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)
Quote: metalmorph said: well, i believe in god, but not in the conforming to the churches views. I don't consider myself as a member of the church, but I have faith. I don't abide by the rules that they think is right. I think I sound like some emo kid right now. but it's how I feel.
an example of such is "Evolution is true, but god made it happen"
see a happy medium ^_^
Faith in what? Yahweh? Jesus Christ? Did jesus bodily return to heaven?
A person should have the right to believe what they wish, but the Christian church and the other major religions have a tendency to put beliefs into the minds of young children and then attempt to restrict them from exploring any other possibilities. Then, these later generations adamantly support these hypotheses from archaic information and stories, beautiful stories, but simply stories from people who thought the world was flat and the blood of a virgin was something on the level of supported slave systems.
Then these ideas remain stagnant, discouraging inquiries into other areas made available by experience and technology, supporting willful ignorance. Then the wars come, the violent games of 'my god can beat up your god'. More bigotry is perpetuated by religion than any other means in the known history of our species, and indubitably the unknown history knocked out of bounds by mostly European crusaders over the past few hundred years.
An idea is wonderful. An idea gives you a place to keep comfort, and something that can move. Static belief, specifically political religion, gives you a place to feel comfort, by excluding others. This is one of the most unfortunate standard of our history.
Maybe god DID make evolution. But what do you mean when you say that? The New Testament god, or the Old Testament god? I can't for the life of me see how they could be the same thing. When you have faith, is it bound by word?
It is very easy to understand. We are in a galaxy. One of a million billion trillion. We are not special like everyone used to think. I cannot believe the arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity of human beings, especially sheltered minded people like Americans. You can't blame someone for being misinformed but once you learn the truth don't drag out the bullshit to make our society a little less amazing. We do not need people telling us what to believe or what not to do. George Carlin said it best, religion to total bullshit. So much bullshit you just have to stand in awe.
It is very easy to understand. We are in a galaxy. One of a million billion trillion. We are not special like everyone used to think. I cannot believe the arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity of human beings, especially sheltered minded people like Americans. You can't blame someone for being misinformed but once you learn the truth don't drag out the bullshit to make our society a little less amazing. We do not need people telling us what to believe or what not to do. George Carlin said it best, religion to total bullshit. So much bullshit you just have to stand in awe.
R.I.P. George
-------------------- What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
I am in agreement with most of what you say about religion, but a good amount of your frustration is because you are trying to understand the scriptures from a literal perspective and running into contradictions within the NT and within the OT and between the OT and the NT. One has to extrapolate the writing style of ancient cultures using modern tools like anthropology, the history of religion, psychology, the psychology of religion, etc. because moderns cannot (thank God) think like pre-scientific, unconsciousness-dominated humans.
Ancients did not think like moderns, and they confounded physical with metaphysical. If, like C.G. Jung, one mines the rich imagery and symbolism from the writings of ancient cultures, one can distill out invariant features of the psyche - archetypes - discrete 'constellations' of emotion-laden images that still comprise the unconscious of modern people: God, savior, angels, devils, apocalypse, salvation/illumination, resurrection, rebirth, witchcraft, sorcery, serpents/dragons, heaven, hell, etc.
Becoming aware of the unconscious frees one from the dominance of its influence, like the fundamentalists of biblically based religions. The ideally healthy situation is to create a 'dialogue' with one's unconscious, to learn to understand one's dreams, for example, and allow an "ego-Self" axis to form between our rational consciousness and our irrational unconscious so that the synthesis of transrationality can guide our lives. Staunch rationalists and irrational fanatics are both skewed off the healthy psychological continuum. Health a "razor's edge."
Merely dismissing all religion as 'bullshit' is just a lazy copout. It is ignorant because it shows ignorance of one's very unconscious. Instead of taking an interest in self-understanding, one would rather live in simple sensory existence, or a life forced into the Procrustean bed of rationality where there is a 'simple scientific explanation' for everything, and by science, a very 19th century notion is being posited. Dreams are nonsense, mere rubbish, for example. Spiritual insight? Prove it to me empirically! 'Left Hemispheres Gone Wild!' No global perspective. Build the H-bomb, fail to see the global implications. See religious forms and rituals, fail to see or understand the wider meanings or the symbolism beneath the mere actions. Have a psychedelically "occasioned" Beatific Vision, 'nothingbuttery' - nothing but biochemically altered neuronal responses. Not concomitant, but "simple causality," 'The Merovingian' in The Matrix of such a mind.
-------------------- Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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