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 Faaip_De_Oiad
Registered: 05/29/01
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 The ethics of revenge
#8602524 - 07/06/08 10:25 PM (3 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Revenge is a funny thing. It has a lot of negative connotations, but can be seen as an acceptable act of vengeance against someone who has done wrong.
So where does retribution meet revenge?
I know some people would say that any kind of act preformed in a negative state of mind that is meant to cause someone any amount of grief, will come back at you via Karma, but i'm looking for personal opinions on right vs. wrong, not spiritual ideas on the state/fate of my soul. (though i'm interested in hearing those too)
But assuming no one is harmed what's wrong with making yourself feel better through a mischievous deed that only causes frustration and or irritation?
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more art at... myspace.com/deivox
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Exploding Man
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Depends on how far you go.
I believe that revenge is somewhat weak. Thats not to say that I don't exact my revenge sometimes, but I feel weak afterwards. I guess I mean that I wish I was psychologically strong enough to not let others get to me. However, it does happen on a lot of occasions.
Whats the situation?
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Dude96
Registered: 05/25/08
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Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Revenge varies from person to person I believe..
Let's take it to an extreme for arguments sake - say someone killed my family and everyone I loved. Perfect holywood example for revenge...yeaaa go in guns blazing right.
No.
Revenge isn't an emotion, but rather in my opinion a lack of. It is the exacting of this lack of emotions on the individual who is responsible for the disappearance in the first place.
The person who harmed everyone I cared for I would never kill, that would be too easy. I'd content myself putting them through the hell they put me. They would suffer my same fate. It'd likely become an obsession for me to see them wallow in misery, to destroy every ounce of happiness they ever had.
I'm a meticulous person, I don't know where it'd go afterwards but you summed it up quite well. However, when does revenge meet retribution is interesting.
In the aforementioned case would you believe it to be revenge or retribution?
I'd call it revenge, as i'd be getting even and then some..in my thought retribution is justice being served, more or less equally as it should have been or is deserved.
Revenge is getting even, it is satisfying one's self, it is getting even and then some.
=D, i'm in the mood for discussion so throw more out there?
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Exploding Man
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 Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Dude96]
#8602587 - 07/06/08 10:45 PM (3 months, 4 hours ago) |
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I agree retribution probably isn't going as far as revenge. I think that it is doing something that makes you feel better, whether that is giving them equal suffering or not. However, I think revenge goes the extra mile. Meaning that you kill there family as well as dance on their grave. Giving you the upper hand instead of evening it out.
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Dude96
Registered: 05/25/08
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Precisely.
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Exploding Man
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Dude96]
#8602611 - 07/06/08 10:55 PM (3 months, 4 hours ago) |
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My question is when is it ok to exact revenge... or is it?
My personal philosophy is that you shouldn't, that you should "be the bigger man". But that doesn't always work for me.
Will you feel better or worse by getting revenge?
And will that make you target for more revenge?
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Edited by Exploding Man (07/06/08 10:56 PM)
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Dude96
Registered: 05/25/08
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To an extent what you're saying works. But humans profess an great skill when it comes to destruction. We destroy our planet thoughtlessly, we will destroy ourselves thoughtlessly if it means we 'win'. As sad as it is, given the right circumstances I know I would.
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Exploding Man
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Dude96]
#8602634 - 07/06/08 11:09 PM (3 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Thats my problem too. In a global sense I do it everyday. I take more than I give. Most people live that way unfortunatey. We are destructive creatures and I truly feel that is our nature. Although we are also cognitive being and we should figure out better ways.
Like we shouldn't have to act on every emotion. Such as just because I am horny I don't go rape anyone. Meaning just because I want revenge I shouldn't beat somebody up. Maybe I am just becoming a hippy, but I wish I could be in control of my basic instincts. The world might benifit if that was the case.
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AtticusProphet
speaker for the dead
Registered: 02/07/08
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taking revenge is more than just beating someone up.
I personally think that revenge should not be for any personal gain, that makes it more selfish than anything else. Revenge is only justified IMO when its for the sake of someone else AKA I wouldnt seek revenge if someone robbed me but if they robbed my girlfriend or someone else I would go out of my way to bring the hammer down for the sake of the victim.
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My attorney had never been able to accept the notion, often espoused by former drug abusers, that you can get a lot higher without drugs than with them, and neither have I for that matter.
-Raoul Duke
A man who knows others is learned, a man who knows himself is wise.
I am your enemy from now on. From now on I am your teacher
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learningtofly
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Sadly, by doing nothing, you may be sending the message that you are submitting to them and they are free to do this to other people.
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GnuBobo said:
You're a stupid hippie. That's my point.
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Boots
Disenchanted
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Pick your battles. Some things are worth getting revenge for, others, just shrug.
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TheEyeIsWatching
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Boots]
#8611563 - 07/09/08 03:46 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Vengeance is never a good thing.
I took a class on the theory of violence/non-violence and we discussed the concept of revenge quite thoroughly.
I myself would like to say that I'd never take revenge. Although, I can't completely commit to this because I have never been in a dire situation such as one provoking me to want revenge.
I once listened to a mother speak about her son being murdered by a 16 year old male. She expressed her deep desire to find this young man and take revenge on him for her son. She came to the conclusion that it'd much better for him to recognize his wrong doing on his own.
The young man was taken into custody and was put in prison for 10 years. During this time period the mother started a program to help other mothers cope with the feeling of vengeance after their sons/daughters had been murdered. The speaker eventually went to visit the man who killed her son ... she visited him frequently and ended up helping him cope with what he had done. The mother and the murderer of her son eventually developed a relationship committed to preventing events like the ones they had to go through.
Many people do things they regret when they are lacking any experience with love or friendship. This 16 year old who killed this woman's son was in an abusive relationship with his mother. The mother would fool around with her son's friends at parties and this made the son angry. The speaker's son had danced with the young man's mother and the young man became enraged. The speaker mentioned that the act of murder may have been a mix of revenge and jealousy...
It's important to recognize that it's unhealthy on the mind (and in return the body) to want revenge. I always try and be as empathetic with both the victim and the criminal/accused/wrongdoer as I can.
I recommend checking out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
There are situations I hear about everyday where I have the feeling of wanting revenge on those that commit terrible atrocities. I am still very undecided on the topic of revenge. It really does depend on the situation.
What if someone is spreading rumors about you. Do you spread rumors in return or do you just ignore the situation? I guess the important thing to do would be to confront the person spreading the rumors and ask them to stop and maybe ask why they are doing it? Find their soft spot and poke at it until they realize what they are doing is pointless ...
Just remember that revenge can be exponential. You never know how many people you are affecting with your vengeance. Revenge is like a virus.
Just my input. Peace out.
Edited by TheEyeIsWatching (07/09/08 03:58 AM)
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Endlessness
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there are 2 things.
one is vengeance, in which you are a blind automaton reacting to external circumstances, causing suffering to another who has caused suffering to you. The suffering of the other will cause you pleasure.
another is retributive teaching, in which you are an aware being that consciously decides to create a certain situation for someone, like an artificial displeasure, which might be similar to what he has done to you.. Sometimes we learn only by personal direct experience, so creating a situation for someone similar to what they have created for others might make them realize what they did. the motivations are not about making the other suffer, but making the other learn. The learning of the other will cause you the pleasure.
It is not an easy thing to reach the second option when we are emotionally involved, but I think its the only valid and acceptable way. Revenge only brings further negativity ("eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind")
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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> My question is when is it ok to exact revenge... or is it?
I find that it is best to let fate take care of revenge rather than trying to force karma.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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wyldeman007
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Dude96]
#8612405 - 07/09/08 10:30 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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I side with Seuss in this, well at least from an ethical standpoint.
Taking cognitive steps toward revenge is to be unnecessarily hostile. Two wrongs sure don't make a right, and contemplating the validity of vengeance is a fallacy I think.
I've never been a vindictive sort, so I can't imagine what physiological changes I might feel in such a dilemma. If one commits a crime of passion in response to an ill act, that isn't vengeance, like Endlessness said it's an automation.
I'm convinced that revenge and vengeance are virulent emotions not necessarily synonymous with justice. In other words, I'm definitely not immune to such feelings, but I would never consider them to be virtuous.
I believe in rehabilitation over punishment, I suppose, if you actually believe in objective truth, I can see the integrity of your argument. I'm however agnostic to objective truth, it doesn't figure into my equations I'm afraid..
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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 daytripper23
Wanker
Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: wyldeman007]
#8612437 - 07/09/08 10:37 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Say you have a personal philosophy, certain ethical/moral principals that compel you to act. As long as your guided by these principals, (principals of the same nature that many are outlining here), who is to say there is anything wrong with having personal feelings in addition to this, as long as these emotions do not get mixed up in the reasoning.
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wyldeman007
Student
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Are you suggesting that such things like religious convictions of vengeance or other dogmatic ideals ought to be observed?
To you sir, is faith a virtue?
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Dude96
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 183
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: wyldeman007]
#8619824 - 07/10/08 11:03 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Faith is both a vice and a virtue.
With regards to revenge..I know entirely its wrong, but I have a vindictive personality. I'm competitive, A perfectionist if you will. Pushed far enough i'll exact revenge, I fully know its wrong and my actions aren't the proper course, but it won't stop me.
I'm not really sure what that makes me. *shrug*
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NiamhNyx
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: Dude96]
#8620393 - 07/11/08 02:23 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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It's funny that this topic is posted right now, because I've just been thinking about it myself. My uncle was stabbed to death last weekend, and several of my family members are in a rage looking for revenge. My other uncle put a picture of a noose as his facebook profile picture and joined a group called "bring back capital punishment." Even my mom (who's usually a bit more calm and semi-rational) is saying that she won't be ok until the killer is in prison for life. The thing is, none of us yet fully know the circumstances around it. They were buddies and they were drinking that night. That's all we know. It could have been premeditated, or it could have been a drunken clumsy lunge that hit the wrong spot. I just think it's totally fucking insane to talk about hanging a guy when we don't even know what happened for sure. Yes, its terrible and sad but it isn't going to bring back my uncle.
Craving the suffering of the murderer seems to be a really unhealthy and negative coping mechanism, a weakness of character. My uncle is gone and he's not coming back. The man who killed him already has a shitty life and punishing him isn't going to change a damn thing. If anything I think it would be better for him to have to talk to my family and see what he's done to hurt people other than the man he killed. Justice is found in the perpetrator knowing and deeply feeling the implications of his actions and in our family grieving and coming to terms with the loss, it isn't allowing weakness and vindictive impulses to dominate an already terrible situation. As 'they' say, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind."
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WhiskeyClone 
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Re: The ethics of revenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8620619 - 07/11/08 06:58 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Craving the suffering of the murderer seems to be a really unhealthy and negative coping mechanism, a weakness of character. My uncle is gone and he's not coming back. The man who killed him already has a shitty life and punishing him isn't going to change a damn thing. If anything I think it would be better for him to have to talk to my family and see what he's done to hurt people other than the man he killed. Justice is found in the perpetrator knowing and deeply feeling the implications of his actions and in our family grieving and coming to terms with the loss, it isn't allowing weakness and vindictive impulses to dominate an already terrible situation.
Great post. I agree fully.
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-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
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