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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8597772 - 07/05/08 03:30 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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I have died, and its not such a scary thing.
  If you had died you wouldn't be posting here.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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 blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
 
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
#8597787 - 07/05/08 03:33 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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People die, and come back to life all the time.
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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,104
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 5 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8597799 - 07/05/08 03:36 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Source? Its easy to make blanket statements, but what do you have to back it up?
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Cervantes]
#8597808 - 07/05/08 03:41 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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SatChitAnanda
Stranger
Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 22
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
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Re: The Unchanging Self [Re: Icelander]
#8597888 - 07/05/08 04:09 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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There seems to be this idea that enlightenment is this stupified blissful state, white robes, angels perhaps, hands that heal.
It is common for spiritual seekers to succumb to this spiritual persona. I indeed had my holy phase. Eventually, the seeking and the spiritual seeker dies, like a fire burning itself out, and allowing life to flow more and more, more and more. Allowing this to express itself however which way it wants to.
Like the iconic Hindu image of Shakti, the turbulant, chaotic forms of expression standing ontop of the dead corpse of Shiva, the unmoving, formless, unchanging witness. Shakti holds a dagger and the heads of many beheaded men, Shiva however lays there, blissfully grinning with a rock solid erection.
There is nothing wrong with having a bad day, getting angry at someone for cutting you off in traffic, there is nothing profane in existence. We want to love all this, all of Shaktis forms of expression, loving what simply is. Calling someone a dickhead is as sacred as jello pudding and debating on message boards.
To fortify the heart however, this is a different story, there is work to be done. Detaching just won't do. Piles of unconscious material and inner wounds still remain, driving our habitual patterns and sometimes pathological developments. All the meditating in the world won't do anything except witness them and detach from them.
However to fortify the heart is perhaps another discussion. This is my understanding, which is always changing and always discovering.. who knows.
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Cervantes]
#8597896 - 07/05/08 04:12 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Source? Its easy to make blanket statements, but what do you have to back it up?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/32982 
No problem.
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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8597936 - 07/05/08 04:29 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Cardiac arrest is not death. Brain death is death. Try again.
Also Newsweek is not a very reputable source. Try to find scientific studies. These folk are not dead but unconscious and near death. There's a huge difference.
Edited by Icelander (07/05/08 04:51 PM)
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
#8598036 - 07/05/08 05:06 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Cardiac arrest is not death. Brain death is death. Try again.
Also Newsweek is not a very reputable source. Try to find scientific studies. These folk are not dead but unconscious and near death. There's a huge difference.
Brain death does not constitute death, brain dead patients survive in a vegetative state all the time. Death is merely an abstract concept impossible to universally define, first everyone would have to agree on exactly what life is.
Resuscitation after even brain death is a well known phenomena, feel free to do a google search yourself. I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is, and I dont feel obligated to educate you or quote any source material on what is an essentially a vaguely defined opinion.
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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,104
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 5 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8598065 - 07/05/08 05:19 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
I have died, and its not such a scary thing. Your assumptions are way off on that one.
So what the fuck were you talking about when you said ^ ???
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8598079 - 07/05/08 05:24 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Googled.
Brain Dead Means Dead
Kristen Philipkoski Email 04.09.01
If someone is brain dead, the person is dead, period.
This fact can be hard to accept, particularly when a patient might look very much alive to family members. Brain dead people often still have a heartbeat, and their chests may rise and fall with the help of a ventilator, sometimes giving hope to grieving families that the person may suddenly wake up.
This false hope, some experts believe, prevents people from donating organs. People fear that their organs, or those of their loved ones, might be taken before they're actually dead. Some suspect a doctor might "pull the plug" prematurely to harvest their organs.
"It comes up all the time," said Von Roebuck, spokesman for the California Transplant Donor Network. "It's a dire myth. One must remember that if you're in a critical situation, every effort is going to be made to save your life whether you're a donor or not."
This myth and others, such as the misconception that many religions are against donation, contribute to a deficit of about 75,000 organs in the United States. About 6,000 of the patients who wait for these organs die every year.
"The utility of using dead bodies is growing, as is the tragedy of not using them," said Dr. Stuart Youngner, director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics at Case Western University. Youngner spoke at a seminar last month for journalists on covering biotechnology held by the Foundation for American Communications.
Harvard Medical School officials conceived the term "brain dead" in a 1968 paper. Officials there hoped to resolve a novel phenomenon: With new technology patients who were dead could still have a heartbeat -- and give the false impression that they were very much alive while kept on a ventilator.
All states have since recognized that doctors can use "brain death" as the sole criterion for determining that a patient has died. Doctors must perform various tests to verify brain death.
If the tests show brain activity, the patient may be in a coma or vegetative state. A brain dead person doesn't show brain activity.
"An individual who has been given this diagnosis is a corpse, not a patient," reads an article written in Community Ethics by Lance Stell, chief of medical ethics at the Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, North Carolina. "If it is ever appropriate for a physician to order treatment stopped unilaterally on grounds of futility, irrespective of what families or roving strangers may wish, this is it."
I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is,
Then how is it that you claim that you were dead?
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Cervantes]
#8598092 - 07/05/08 05:31 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
blewmeanie said:
I have died, and its not such a scary thing. Your assumptions are way off on that one.
So what the fuck were you talking about when you said ^ ???
because I have, I had an accident cliff diving when I was 16. Believe it or not, it doesnt really matter to me. My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself. Everyone isnt afraid.
--------------------
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8598113 - 07/05/08 05:45 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself.
How are we supposed to know when you make a false statement and mean something very different.
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
#8598117 - 07/05/08 05:45 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Googled.
Brain Dead Means Dead
Kristen Philipkoski Email 04.09.01
If someone is brain dead, the person is dead, period.
This fact can be hard to accept, particularly when a patient might look very much alive to family members. Brain dead people often still have a heartbeat, and their chests may rise and fall with the help of a ventilator, sometimes giving hope to grieving families that the person may suddenly wake up.
This false hope, some experts believe, prevents people from donating organs. People fear that their organs, or those of their loved ones, might be taken before they're actually dead. Some suspect a doctor might "pull the plug" prematurely to harvest their organs.
"It comes up all the time," said Von Roebuck, spokesman for the California Transplant Donor Network. "It's a dire myth. One must remember that if you're in a critical situation, every effort is going to be made to save your life whether you're a donor or not."
This myth and others, such as the misconception that many religions are against donation, contribute to a deficit of about 75,000 organs in the United States. About 6,000 of the patients who wait for these organs die every year.
"The utility of using dead bodies is growing, as is the tragedy of not using them," said Dr. Stuart Youngner, director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics at Case Western University. Youngner spoke at a seminar last month for journalists on covering biotechnology held by the Foundation for American Communications.
Harvard Medical School officials conceived the term "brain dead" in a 1968 paper. Officials there hoped to resolve a novel phenomenon: With new technology patients who were dead could still have a heartbeat -- and give the false impression that they were very much alive while kept on a ventilator.
All states have since recognized that doctors can use "brain death" as the sole criterion for determining that a patient has died. Doctors must perform various tests to verify brain death.
If the tests show brain activity, the patient may be in a coma or vegetative state. A brain dead person doesn't show brain activity.
"An individual who has been given this diagnosis is a corpse, not a patient," reads an article written in Community Ethics by Lance Stell, chief of medical ethics at the Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, North Carolina. "If it is ever appropriate for a physician to order treatment stopped unilaterally on grounds of futility, irrespective of what families or roving strangers may wish, this is it."
I wasnt making any kind of statement about what life or death is,
Then how is it that you claim that you were dead?
Legally, and medically the term brain death is only used when it is permanent, however people do recover even after all vital signs have stopped, and an encephalogram shows no activity. The only difference between the two being the the permanence of the former. If they were to recover it would no longer be called brain death.
I work in a university hospital, I'm not a medical professional, but I work around them, and in the same environment. I'm simply not going to debate the topic with you, if you choose to believe that no one is ever resuscitated after a brief period of brain death that is fine with me. Go talk to an ER doctor if you like.
--------------------
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8598123 - 07/05/08 05:49 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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I'm not a medical professional, but I play one on TV.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
#8598135 - 07/05/08 05:54 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
My statement was about the fear of death, not death itself.
How are we supposed to know when you make a false statement and mean something very different.
Believe me or not, it makes no difference to me. Questioning the truth of my own perspective when relating to the OP's topic doesnt seem very conducive to conversation or debate though. Perhaps you have something valid of your own to add?
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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8598148 - 07/05/08 05:59 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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I already posted earlier on this subject.
and
I don't feel too bad about questioning anyones conflicting statements.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,286
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 8 hours, 39 minutes
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 Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Chronic777]
#8598409 - 07/05/08 07:37 PM (1 month, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
If who you take to be you is what you've learned and your personality, then fear of death will rule your life.
You may not realize it but all actions of the ego are in defensiveness of the fear of death.
When you fully realize you are not personality but you are what accepted the idea of a changing personality, then you are free of all this.
OOhhhh, here we go with all the fear of death crap.... 
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person.... 
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 20,904
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8600163 - 07/06/08 09:12 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person....
I don't remember anyone saying this.
Most fear of death is unconscious IMO. Its really fear of not being (personality structure/ego) rather than dying itself or being dead.
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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blewmeanie
Jacoby Liberation Front
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 4,294
Loc: Gainesville Fl
Last seen: 7 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: Icelander]
#8600168 - 07/06/08 09:15 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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Your only afraid because you havent died yet.....unlike us already dead and back folks
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"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
-- Thomas Paine
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 9,808
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Re: The Unchaning Self [Re: blewmeanie]
#8600521 - 07/06/08 11:51 AM (1 month, 23 days ago) |
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i guarantee that enlightenment is not a state.
not a state of mind nor an unchanging state of anything else.
somehow it is related to this matter of a seemingly unchanging self.
I have noticed that part of my witnessing self, seems to be there again every time i glance, but then it changes,
or i do, but then when i glance again I see it again for a moment.
it does not stay, unchanging, but it seems to always be there.
maybe when I see it I just see the shadow of it, and that is what is changing, like everything else in my mind, combining with other images and fading into the wall of memory.
maybe I never actually see anything, just the fading evidence of ideas and sensations.
but this one is curious, encouraging, fluid, and abiding. maybe this is what people are talking about?
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~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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