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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 95,609
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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 Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Shins]
#8601174 - 07/06/08 03:37 PM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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I believe I need to sue al gore for starting this global warming
crap, plenty of rain before he got started
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 12,229
Last seen: 12 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8601184 - 07/06/08 03:40 PM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Is it too much rain or too little rain or Goldilocks rain we're supposed to get? I can't remember. The Goracle was less than clear.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 16,838
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 42 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: zappaisgod]
#8603114 - 07/07/08 04:16 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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> The Goracle was less than clear.
You just didn't pay enough... yet... surely there is somebody out there that needs your money more than you. Once you make a tax donation, the Goracle will provide.
> someone pointed out to me about how farmers need to use gas to til the soul
Wow, the energy companies are really getting aggressive, going after the Church now...
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Just another spore in the wind.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2,329
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Shins]
#8604300 - 07/07/08 02:07 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah someone pointed out to me about how farmers need to use gas to til the soul, plant the seeds, fertalise, harvest etc. and i was like hmm.. seems like not much net energy gained.
Yes. I don't have the statistics handy right now, but I don't believe that there is much (if any) of a net benefit environmentally to using corn-based ethanol given the (current) amount of (petroleum-based) fuel that goes into it... not to mentioned the negative aspect of diverting food-crops for energy instead of, well, food (human & livestock alike). Now, if we had algae-derived biofuel produced & transported through processes powered by algae biofuels & a combination of other renewable & ecologically sustainable methods (like solar and/or wind energy at the production facilities & retail outlets, for example)... we'd be making some real progress towards sustainable living & preserving the earth, it's necessary natural processes & its biodiversity.
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"Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every pine needle, every sandy shore, every humming insect is holy... We are part of the earth and it is part of us... The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth." - Chief Seattle
"...the role our nation has taken... of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investments... we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values... When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 95,609
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Shins]
#8604598 - 07/07/08 03:41 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
yeah someone pointed out to me about how farmers need to use gas to til the soul, plant the seeds, fertalise, harvest etc.
I'm not aware of any tractors running on gas, they all use diesel
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WornTraveler
Captain Cannabis
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 354
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8604717 - 07/07/08 04:14 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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In regards to the Iraq oil debate, it doesn't matter how much oil is in the economy, right now a lot of the rise is based on speculation. People place their investments where they think they'll best be served, and lately with the U.S. economy in a recession (which affects the global market on a huge scale, think of all the cheap plastic Chinese toys that are not being bought now that Americans are pinching the pennies), everyone is starting to get edgy. When gas companies think oil is going to be expensive later, they try and offset it by adding to their profits now. Then consumers start saving money they would usually spend, sending markets for durable goods into the toilet (not many middle-class Americans wasting their cash on huge trucks and plasma screen TVs now that the internet boom is finally coming down), and as those markets dry up, their workers of course start to save their money. It's a cycle, and it's vicious.
Luckily, the cycle has been going on for hundreds of years, and there's always an up afterwards. There are ups and downs- the sky is not falling. After this, the economy will start to grow again, eventually will reach new heights even better than before, until the growth is no longer sustainable, the market retreats, and things go down for a bit.
Of course this is horribly simplified, almost to the point of being inaccurate, and leaves out a lot of very important factors, but if you really want to know about it, take an economics course on it. It ends simply with this: No, oil prices are definitely NOT based on supply and demand. Supply and demand play a role, but market speculation is much more influential.
As far as bio-fuels, I've had this argument with everyone. Wannabe Environmentalists (you know, the kind who embrace everything that seems green without really researching it) seem to think it's the "Win" button for clean fuel, but SO much land is wasted in rowing it that I really don't see the point. The algae-based fuels seem to be a very interesting idea though. As a primary autotrophic producer, algae would have much more energy in a unit of biomass than corn would, and the resources to grow it are minimal compared to what is needed to grow corn. I think if that situation is ever worked out to be viable, we can more or less kiss our worries over fuel and the environment goodbye.
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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.
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Shins
funguy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 439
Last seen: 14 days, 14 hours
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8604730 - 07/07/08 04:18 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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yeah.. to clarify i consider diesel "gas"
another thing i forgot to mention is that alot of the fertilizer that farmers use is a made from petroleum byproducts.
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I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.
-Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the REVOLUTION.
-Benjamin Franklin
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 12,229
Last seen: 12 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: WornTraveler]
#8604866 - 07/07/08 04:51 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
WornTraveler said:
In regards to the Iraq oil debate, it doesn't matter how much oil is in the economy, right now a lot of the rise is based on speculation.And what, pray tell, do you suppose drives the speculation?
People place their investments where they think they'll best be served, and lately with the U.S. economy in a recession The US economy is not in a recession
(which affects the global market on a huge scale, think of all the cheap plastic Chinese toys that are not being bought now that Americans are pinching the pennies),Everything effects everything, that's why it's called global.
everyone is starting to get edgy.The oil speculators seemed to have beaten everyone except journalists to the punch. Or did the journalists make everyone edgy. So hard to tell.
When gas companies think oil is going to be expensive later, they try and offset it by adding to their profits now. Huh?
Then consumers start saving money they would usually spend, sending markets for durable goods into the toilet (not many middle-class Americans wasting their cash on huge trucks and plasma screen TVs now that the internet boom is finally coming down),The internet "boom" has been over for several years. Where have you been. And who are you to say what is money wasted?
and as those markets dry up, their workers of course start to save their money. It's a cycle, and it's vicious.It is a cycle, it isn't the least bit vicious and it has existed for centuries
Luckily, the cycle has been going on for hundreds of years, and there's always an up afterwards. There are ups and downs- the sky is not falling. After this, the economy will start to grow again, eventually will reach new heights even better than before, until the growth is no longer sustainable, the market retreats, and things go down for a bit.Something right.
Of course this is horribly simplified, almost to the point of being inaccurate, and leaves out a lot of very important factors, but if you really want to know about it, take an economics course on it. It ends simply with this: No, oil prices are definitely NOT based on supply and demand. Supply and demand play a role, but market speculation is much more influential.What, pray tell do you suppose drives the speculation? Tulip color? Speculation is based on anticipation. What is anticipated is that demand will continue to rise in the developing world, not decrease to any degree anywhere else and that many sources of oil are somewhat tumultuous. Expected increased demand with expected steady supply. Hence the market trend. Even the threat that the US will start drilling will have a mollifying effect even if it takes years to bear fruit. I repeat, speculation is based not on what is, but on what people perceive will be. That's why it's speculation. Duh.
As far as bio-fuels, I've had this argument with everyone. Wannabe Environmentalists (you know, the kind who embrace everything that seems green without really researching it) seem to think it's the "Win" button for clean fuel, but SO much land is wasted in rowing it that I really don't see the point. The algae-based fuels seem to be a very interesting idea though. As a primary autotrophic producer, algae would have much more energy in a unit of biomass than corn would, and the resources to grow it are minimal compared to what is needed to grow corn. I think if that situation is ever worked out to be viable, we can more or less kiss our worries over fuel and the environment goodbye.
Ethanol from corn is such an enviroweenie-driven disaster that they should be drummed out of any meeting held forever and let kindergarten children in instead. Without subsidies it wouldn't exist and it does nothing to decrease pollution. A complete waste brought to you by your friendly neighborhood greentard. Algae is cute and all but our only shot is fusion. High tech big ugly dangerous fusion. If we don't get it in the next century we are pretty much fucked anyway.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2,329
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8605334 - 07/07/08 06:41 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not aware of any tractors running on gas, they all use diesel
Some old school ones do (think red & cabless), but yeah, all newer farm machinery uses diesel fuel, not gasoline. If I remember a segment from Nova or a show on The Science Channel correctly, then a newly-developed algae-based biofuel can run in diesel engines, which would be great news for more environmentally-sustainable farming & trucking.
Quote:
shins: another thing i forgot to mention is that alot of the fertilizer that farmers use is a made from petroleum byproducts.
An ideal example of sustainable agriculture would be machines (powered by algae-based biofuel with a complement of solar or other energy) bringing livestock manure to fields for fertilizer, with 'green manure' providing the additional nitrogen & other nutrients in fields where livestock manure isn't spread. Getting rid of (a vast majority of) both burning fossil fuels & synthetic fertilizers is possible, but only if the political will is there (& in turn the will of the farmers, which it definitely would be among them if such techniques & options were available & economically-viable), which it presently unfortunately isn't among corporate-owned politicians & bureaucrats.
Quote:
zappaisgod: Algae is cute and all but our only shot is fusion.
Wrong. Algae-based biofuel would have got started in mid-nineties & would be widely produced & consumed today except for crude oil being so low at the time. And no, this is not simply an 'enviro-weeny's wet dream', unless the U.S. Department of Energy is comprised of environmentalists who have wet dreams about algae instead of realists simply committed to providing other policymakers within the government accurate assessments of U.S. energy policy & the economics of it. Barring a drastic drop on the price of crude oil (which is very unlikely), algae-based biofuels are going to come unto the scene in a big way shorty (probably within 10 years), & again, this is according to the U.S. DoE, not simply the prophecies of an organic-farming hippie.
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (07/07/08 07:04 PM)
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WornTraveler
Captain Cannabis
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 354
Last seen: 25 days, 14 hours
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: zappaisgod]
#8605369 - 07/07/08 06:47 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Anyone who thinks the economy is not in recession needs to take a serious look around, 'fraid to say. I'm a Republican for christsake, and I know enough about the economy to know we're in a recession. I've been on a job hunt for six months and just finally managed to get employed, and I've got excellent references and total flexibility with hours. Inflation is getting worse, the stock market is not providing growth (I've lost 2k dollars in a diversified fund over 2 years, not exactly a healthy market). Let's be real- if we're not in a recession, we're certainly heading towards one. Put politics aside; saying we're not in a recession is not enough to make it so.
And yes, speculation is partially about supply and demand, but it's not completely about that. Anything can play a role in speculation, including things like "Who's going to win the election?" "How is the economy doing?", "Is it an El Nino year?" which are not directly related to supply and demand.
And I'm not sure why you're arguing with me, I was more or less backing you up lol.
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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 12,229
Last seen: 12 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: WornTraveler]
#8605434 - 07/07/08 07:02 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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We may be headed there but we aren't there yet.
And speculation is 100% about perception, a good deal of which is related to supply and demand but only in the sense of it's perceived future effect. Perception. Tulips.
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 95,609
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: Shins]
#8605619 - 07/07/08 07:45 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
another thing i forgot to mention is that alot of the fertilizer that farmers use is a made from petroleum byproducts.
99% of what you touch has some affiliation with petrol products
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 95,609
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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Re: Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis [Re: WornTraveler]
#8605625 - 07/07/08 07:46 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
WornTraveler said:
Anyone who thinks the economy is not in recession needs to take a serious look around, 'fraid to say.
we have to wait on one of the acronyms to actually announce it,
since the GDP is up .1% we're not in a recession yet
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