|
 Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 40,057
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 3 hours, 10 minutes
|
 Sacrifice
#8594522 - 07/04/08 11:06 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing? The giving of something one values greatly for something not valued as highly seems like the undermining of one's integrity to me.
Why is the man who dies saving a stranger viewed more heroically than someone who lives his life to completion, making the most success out of his potential?
In my opinion, the latter man is much more of a hero because he values his life more than anything in the world, while the former values the life of a stranger that he has never met more than his own.
What has created this view in society that one's life should not be the most important thing to a human being?
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8594602 - 07/04/08 11:39 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
What has created this view in society that one's life should not be the most important thing to a human being?
A better place...??
Science is like... Where?? It goes in all directions for a long time. Heaven?? Where?? We got telescopes, spacecraft, and most likely technologies yet to be revealed.
Heaven?? Where??
Show me.
:I will not do that so that I know for myself, heavens no!!
--------------------
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
|
|
Besides... Then one might want to live forever...?? That's a bad idea...
--------------------
|
Chronic777
Empty Awareness
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Behind Your Eyeballs
Last seen: 19 hours, 30 minutes
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8594608 - 07/04/08 11:42 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
I dont agree, your basically saying a selfish ego is "better" than living for others?
Correct me if im wrong...
And imo society values selfish people more than it does selfless people, just take a look around, we worship self obsessed celebrities not saints & sages.
--------------------
"Only if one knows the truth of love, which is the real nature of Self, will the strong entangled knot of life be untied. Only if one attains the height of love will liberation be attained. Such is the heart of reality. The experience of Self is only love, which is seeing only love, hearing only love, feeling only love, tasting only love & smelling only love, which is bliss"
|
 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 9,721
Loc: PNW
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8594623 - 07/04/08 11:48 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
What has created this view in society that one's life should not be the most important thing to a human being?
Look at this way: if you were in mortal peril, would you rather have "tribe" members who would risk their lives to save you, or who would stand idly by as you perished? It's a selfish POV, and a selfish preference. We each want to survive, yet we want others around us who would put our life ahead of their own. The inner battle is between the need to belong (which was intimately tied to survival during most of our existence) and the need to survive.
Society exalts those who "sacrifice" themselves because we all selfishly want others to put us first.
--------------------
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 40,057
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 3 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Veritas]
#8594633 - 07/04/08 11:52 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
What has created this view in society that one's life should not be the most important thing to a human being?
Look at this way: if you were in mortal peril, would you rather have "tribe" members who would risk their lives to save you, or who would stand idly by as you perished? It's a selfish POV, and a selfish preference. We each want to survive, yet we want others around us who would put our life ahead of their own. The inner battle is between the need to belong (which was intimately tied to survival during most of our existence) and the need to survive.
Society exalts those who "sacrifice" themselves because we all selfishly want others to put us first.
That does make sense.
While you may hope one would sacrifice themselves to save your life, should you rationally expect one to do so? I certainly would not.
I believe many people believe they are entitled to be saved, whether it is having their lives saved, being saved from poverty, or being saved from personal responsibility. These are all leading to the decay of society (especially the latter).
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 40,057
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 3 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
Quote:
your basically saying a selfish ego is "better" than living for others?
Yes, much, much so. Every human's moral prerogative is to first live for themselves. Only by living for yourself can you possibly hope to do anyone else any good.
Why live for others? Your life is your own to live and no one is entitled to share any of your success or failure. If you feel like sharing, that is one thing. But to be expected to share or, even worse, coerced to share is nothing less than tyranny.
|
WhiskeyClone 
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 12,968
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Last seen: 5 hours, 1 minute
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8596303 - 07/04/08 11:55 PM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing? The giving of something one values greatly for something not valued as highly seems like the undermining of one's integrity to me.
I think the greatest human quality is compassion; the ability to recognize another human as being not fundamentally different from oneself, and therefore not worth more than oneself. Most people recognize the logic of this and we revere those who sacrifice something of their own to act upon that understanding.
--------------------
-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
|
TheCow
Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,637
Last seen: 3 months, 8 hours
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8596313 - 07/05/08 12:00 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
coerced to share is nothing less than tyranny.
Whose doing this?
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 40,057
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 3 hours, 10 minutes
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: TheCow]
#8596372 - 07/05/08 12:33 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Government through law and society through the defining of acceptable norms.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 40,057
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 3 hours, 10 minutes
|
|
Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing? The giving of something one values greatly for something not valued as highly seems like the undermining of one's integrity to me.
I think the greatest human quality is compassion; the ability to recognize another human as being not fundamentally different from oneself, and therefore not worth more than oneself. Most people recognize the logic of this and we revere those who sacrifice something of their own to act upon that understanding.
The thing is, we are different in that your life is yours and my life is mine.
I can not possibly see how you can value a stranger's life equally as yours. Can you honestly say that my life is just as important to you as your own? If only one of use could live, would you give up your own life for mine or any other stranger's? I know I wouldn't.
|
thedefone
take it on the otherside..
Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,498
Loc: Schlachthof-Fünf
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8596421 - 07/05/08 12:55 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why is the man who dies saving a stranger viewed more heroically than someone who lives his life to completion, making the most success out of his potential?
Quote:
Society exalts those who "sacrifice" themselves because we all selfishly want others to put us first.
Risk. Those who risk everything they have to save that same thing for another are placed in a higher regard due to the risk for a higher ideal. Anyone and everyone will obey instinct and avoid the hurtling bus; only those who are willing to step into the bus' path to safeguard an ideal are worthy of the higher regard.
And/Or...Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
your basically saying a selfish ego is "better" than living for others?
Yes, much, much so. Every human's moral prerogative is to first live for themselves. Only by living for yourself can you possibly hope to do anyone else any good.
To say so is to deny evolution. Man is not a solitary creature. It is a pack mentality. Is your brother a stronger hunter, or better provider? Are you stronger in numbers, and the risk of the loss of one is worth the possible loss of two? Also, associating morality into a question of survival is ill-advised, as such things are not moral in nature, but instinctual.
--------------------
I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.
|
b0red5tiff
i deliver the news
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 7,718
Loc: \m/
Last seen: 5 hours, 32 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing? The giving of something one values greatly for something not valued as highly seems like the undermining of one's integrity to me.
because it confirms your ties to society, that you are inside it instead of being an outsider. by sacrificing you are investing in society, thus you wouldn't want to change/destroy it because you've given to it so much. i think. did i miss the point completely?
--------------------
 
***if you're reading this then you're already asleep***
***if we're gonna kill each other how are we gonna live forever? if we're gonna live forever how are we gonna kill each other?***
|
TheCow
Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,637
Last seen: 3 months, 8 hours
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8596477 - 07/05/08 01:41 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Government through law and society through the defining of acceptable norms.
Care to shed light on where they define this as an acceptable norm?
|
TheCow
Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,637
Last seen: 3 months, 8 hours
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8596483 - 07/05/08 01:46 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why is the man who dies saving a stranger viewed more heroically than someone who lives his life to completion, making the most success out of his potential?
Sacrifice
It's heroic of firefighters to risk their lives to help other people. It is not heroic for Bill Gates to have strongarmed the competition in the early 90's to secure his subpar OS as the de facto standard.
he·ro Audio Help /ˈhɪəroʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[heer-oh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. Classical Mythology.
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
maybe you misunderstand what the definition of a hero is? Personally if I wasn't such a huge worthless human being Id aspire to live my life helping people.
|
daytripper23
Wanker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,604
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: TheCow]
#8596609 - 07/05/08 04:57 AM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing? The giving of something one values greatly for something not valued as highly seems like the undermining of one's integrity to me.
Why is the man who dies saving a stranger viewed more heroically than someone who lives his life to completion, making the most success out of his potential?
In my opinion, the latter man is much more of a hero because he values his life more than anything in the world, while the former values the life of a stranger that he has never met more than his own.
What has created this view in society that one's life should not be the most important thing to a human being?
Because somehow, the two dominant philosophies of America, Christianity and Capitalism, somehow came together. The interplay of these two philosophies is sublime. Capitalism is fierce individualism, while Christianity... What is Christianity? You look at the supposed ideal of Christianity, the Christ figure, and it would seem to be the exact opposite of this, selflessness. But its a bit more complicated, because generally Christians do not practice what they preach.
How exactly do these contradicting philosophies come together like this? The only way is a corruption of one ideal or the other, and it seems that Christianity, being corrupt already for thousands of years is the best choice.
Although this doesn't exactly answer the question of how these philosophies come together, it is interesting to note that Christianity actually has somewhat of a capitalistic quality in itself. Anyone at all versed in Christianity is well aware of the inquisition of Christianity. Is this anything other than the self interest of Christianity as a whole? This same way of functioning can be seen in other ways too, I think Veritas was pretty specific to describe this...
Quote:
Look at this way: if you were in mortal peril, would you rather have "tribe" members who would risk their lives to save you, or who would stand idly by as you perished? It's a selfish POV, and a selfish preference. We each want to survive, yet we want others around us who would put our life ahead of their own. The inner battle is between the need to belong (which was intimately tied to survival during most of our existence) and the need to survive.
Society exalts those who "sacrifice" themselves because we all selfishly want others to put us first.
I don't know if this is the only version of sacrifice, but there isn't any doubt in my mind that it is the dominant version.
This wouldn't be a problem if we were genuine about it.
But it seems like politicians shift from one "ideal" to the other, often specifically capitalism and Christian morals, but what they are really doing is shifting from true philosophical opposites Form and Chaos. This gap is as wide as it gets, and because somehow we have fully embraced both these discordant ones over all other philosophies,(and repressed the sublime dissonance that arises) politicians are allowed to play this entire spectrum. Until this issue is explicitly addressed, politics will be philosophically meaningless.
Perhaps I could be more politically savy myself, I admit that much of what I say is not interesting or convincing. But you have to admit that its damned confounding how these two philosophies were both embraced by the same kind of people.
Nietzsche had alot to say about exactly this, maybe ill come back and drop some quotes.
Edited by daytripper23 (07/05/08 05:21 AM)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 20,288
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 19 hours, 8 minutes
|
Re: Sacrifice [Re: Redstorm]
#8600967 - 07/06/08 02:30 PM (3 months, 12 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Why is personal sacrifice viewed by society as a good thing?
Couldn't answer; I have no clue how society "views" things.
--------------------
 
Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up 
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
|
drok
creep
Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,214
Loc: on my high horse
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
|
|
it all breaks down to, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Im sure most of us here like it when people do things for us tho nobody "likes" sacrificing when its happening, but its a wonderful feeling when its all over with, at least in my experience
--------------------
CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
|
Oweyervishice
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 800
Last seen: 2 hours, 36 minutes
|
|
Quote:
thedefone said:
To say so is to deny evolution. Man is not a solitary creature. It is a pack mentality. Is your brother a stronger hunter, or better provider? Are you stronger in numbers, and the risk of the loss of one is worth the possible loss of two? Also, associating morality into a question of survival is ill-advised, as such things are not moral in nature, but instinctual.
Pack mentality ruled...in the past. That doesn't mean humans have to stay that way. How is it denying evolution, to see the human race change how they operate?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,682
Loc: underbelly
|
|
We still operate from a pack mentality and there is no evidence of any change in that. Not very likely.
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
|
|
login or 
register to post messages and view our members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, encrypted messages, file attachments, board customizations, and much more!
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
Quote 
