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 satyr
Stranger
Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 1,210
Last seen: 13 minutes, 21 seconds
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 Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: undergrounder]
#8583045 - 07/01/08 05:41 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
undergrounder said:
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BrainChemistry said:
How can you be sure that awareness does not still exist after the brain is dead and gone? Science has yet to prove what happens after death.
I can be more sure than the opposite.
If awareness is not physically based, tell me how an anesthetist can inject chemicals into your bloodstream and make you unaware during surgery? If awareness continues despite the brain, why don't you continue to stay aware? Brain injuries, lesions, pharmacology, sleep experiments ... all show awareness is dependent on the physical brain.
And if awareness is physically brain-based, then without the brain there is no awareness.
The brain is a by-product of awareness, not vise-versa. When you are asleep, unconscious, or in a coma, you awareness resides elsewhere. Why do you think dreaming occurs? Why do you think so many people have had these out of body experiences on the surgery table, after accidents, and through meditative states? On several of my ayahuasca trips I have had experiences outside my body, experiences in which I witnessed my own body from behind, seeing myself with eyes I did not possess. The only awareness that depends upon the brain is awareness of ones body, because our consciousness works through the brain; the brain is simply the physical object in which our consciousness manifests itself in physical reality.
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undergrounder
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,266
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 7 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: satyr]
#8583210 - 07/01/08 07:43 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
satyr said:
Quote:
undergrounder said:
Quote:
BrainChemistry said:
How can you be sure that awareness does not still exist after the brain is dead and gone? Science has yet to prove what happens after death.
I can be more sure than the opposite.
If awareness is not physically based, tell me how an anesthetist can inject chemicals into your bloodstream and make you unaware during surgery? If awareness continues despite the brain, why don't you continue to stay aware? Brain injuries, lesions, pharmacology, sleep experiments ... all show awareness is dependent on the physical brain.
And if awareness is physically brain-based, then without the brain there is no awareness.
The brain is a by-product of awareness, not vise-versa. When you are asleep, unconscious, or in a coma, you awareness resides elsewhere. Why do you think dreaming occurs? Why do you think so many people have had these out of body experiences on the surgery table, after accidents, and through meditative states? On several of my ayahuasca trips I have had experiences outside my body, experiences in which I witnessed my own body from behind, seeing myself with eyes I did not possess. The only awareness that depends upon the brain is awareness of ones body, because our consciousness works through the brain; the brain is simply the physical object in which our consciousness manifests itself in physical reality.
Firstly, i think dreaming usually occurs as a result of REM activation of the cortex during stages of the sleep cycle. You don't dream all the time when you're asleep, your brain goes through long periods of NREM sleep with very little cortical activity and corresponding dreaming. Where is awareness then? If awareness as you say, always exists somewhere, then where is it when you're NOT dreaming? ... (predicting your response, that brings me onto the next point):
Secondly, RE: OOBEs - Noone yet has been able to 'prove' that OOBEs and related experiences are your awareness going 'walkabout' or residing somewhere else. I know i know you might have verified that it's true yourself, maybe the card turned face-down on the shelf was "just one card away" from being correct or whatever, but it's all just anecdotal evidence. Personally, i've heard of so many accounts of people getting details "almost correct" (which must subsequently be counted as abject failure), compared to those that claim they were 100% correct, to believe that even those 'verifiable' stories are chance. I've never heard a single account of a real RTZ experience that claimed to have the details down perfectly. In my own experiences either numbers flicker, or certain objects are missing, or things seem slightly out of place... i've even talked to people who say they've contacted dead relatives during their OOBEs and this is their verification. But noone would deny that belief and expectation play an inordinately important role in determining the content of OOBE-related experiences. This is partly why people use affirmations, or ask for guidance from a 'spirit guide' or even why people have very similar experiences.
The 'projection theory' of OOBEs has never been proven, but there has been 50 years of actual research suggesting that they're most likely psychological in nature. Im not going to pretend that they're foolproof themselves, or even reliably testable, but they are consistent with everything else we know about the brain and support a number of unrelated conditions that show similar phenomena.
Blackmore (1984) suggests one such model where an OOBE is the construction of an alternative consciousness by the brain, switched on by a perceived threat or stress levels and made up of input from memory and imagination, with movement and sensory perception just a kinesthetic/proprioceptive illusion. Similar models are supported by Alvarado et al. (1996), Dalton et al. (1999), McCreery & Claridge, (1995).
Another model developed by Irwin (1985) suggests that autoscopy and other related hallucinations are "a result of the interaction between absorption/attentional factors and the process of losing contact with bodily sensations". I like this theory personally because it can explain NDEs (either due to anaesthesia induced by paramedics or the intense analgesic response of our brain to trauma), it can also explain drug-induced OOBEs (either the anaesthetic nature of ketamine and opiods or the sensory overload/shutdown of seratonin-based drugs) and it can also explain regular OOBEs and meditation as similar loss of normal sensory perception.
But OOBE research hasn't occured in a vaccum, autoscopic and kinesthetic/proprioceptive hallucinations are not only limited to OOBEs and related phenomena: phantom limbs, epileptic bouts of autoscopy, the 'rubber hand' illusion, blindsight, vestibular dysfunction, aircraft pilot vestibular hallucinations, astronaut 'zero-gravity' syndrome, there are tonnes and tonnes of examples of autoscopy or similar sensations and hallucinations that can account for any of the drug-induced, NDE, OOBE or meditative states, and none of these are considered evidence that awareness exists separate from the body. They are all normal phenomena associated with the way the brain pieces together different types of input from the body. Sometimes it makes mistakes, and that's not unusual.
By the way OOBEs actually fit into my theory better... if you can create the illusion of awareness outside of your own body, then it shows that normal awareness could be an illusion as well.
Awareness is the culmination of all the different senses, moulded into a homunculus we call our 'selves', situated at about head-height, just behind the eyes. With a bit of fiddling, brain-induced or chemical, you can situate that homunculus three metre behind you, floating under the ceiling of the bedroom, or even flying through the air seeing the neighbourhood rush past you as you go. This illusion shows that every-day awareness itself could also be an illusion, one that dies along with the senses that creates it.
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 RIP
Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
   
Edited by undergrounder (07/01/08 07:57 AM)
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ZackWyldeFan
Stranger
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 111
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: undergrounder]
#8583631 - 07/01/08 10:57 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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"Where is awareness then? If awareness as you say, always exists somewhere, then where is it when you're NOT dreaming?"
Awarness is still in the brain. sending it throughout the body keeping all blood cells, organs and tissue in balance. if your awarness was gone from the brain then these functions would no longer be needed. Awarness is with us at all times, wether in a coma or non activly dreaming.
as for the first post of all this just being pure awarness, what about metal diseases and what not. when your born you have no concept of this topic existing but yet you still see it. if your simply pure awarness why do we see these things? if you focus your awarness to see these images why would you see those specificaly, how would you know what to produce unless they were there previously?
why would we see the exact same thing as the other person if it was not real? some physical matter being produced. if nothing is real and its all wareness why wouldnt I see tentacles or stubbs instead of arms. why does other humans look like me, and not some gargoyle or some other creature?
And if we as pure awarness can connect and my brains simply creating the illusion of another image like me but as that Awareneses own unique form, why are they are they not like me? thats because they have to exist at some level. some type of matter.
its kind of a strange concept, if it is an allusion then how do you know awarness is not an illusion?
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Diaboleros
Stranger
Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 183
Last seen: 13 days, 2 hours
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: ZackWyldeFan]
#8666824 - 07/22/08 08:02 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Nice post, got any tips on how to meditate to feel one with the all? What do you put your attention on?
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Chronic777
Empty Awareness
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,189
Loc: Behind Your Eyeballs
Last seen: 20 minutes, 40 seconds
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Diaboleros]
#8666934 - 07/22/08 08:54 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diaboleros said:
Nice post, got any tips on how to meditate to feel one with the all? What do you put your attention on?
Awareness & nothing else.
Maybe breathing first if your a newbie, but then put your attention on what is here ALL the time.
Even if you have a blissfull union with the universe, stay as the awareness.
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"Only if one knows the truth of love, which is the real nature of Self, will the strong entangled knot of life be untied. Only if one attains the height of love will liberation be attained. Such is the heart of reality. The experience of Self is only love, which is seeing only love, hearing only love, feeling only love, tasting only love & smelling only love, which is bliss"
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 513orangejuice
vitamin C is 4 tripping
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 373
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Chronic777]
#8667029 - 07/22/08 09:41 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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the reason its all an illusion is like math(my favorite thing in the world) like, Old issac newton's thing, for every action, theres an opposite and equal reaction(karma) or, in the bible, "you reep what you sow" exc,... But, the math part is just this, " + cancels out - " or " - cancels out + " ta get rid of complication and simplify , day cancels out night, left cancels out right, now, if you "have yes now", then,you can easyily assume you will" have no latter" because one stays the same and one changes(void and form, or like in the book after proverbs,"the LORD loves a just balance/a just wieght")have stays the same, and yes now changes into no latter, but, you can feel the opposite energy much easier than using your brain, you see, the goal is actually to cancel yourself out, the self is false, all thoughts are chains, all is illusion, even the deepest darkest unspoken thoughts of a person, all false, you must look at the small, and see that it becomes large, you must see the cold winter, and know the karma is hot summer, freedom comes only when one can conquer the self, that why i think shrooms are a key tool, they have more than a tendency ta bring someone outside there self, to see in pure energy, people dedicate there lives to doing this with out chemical influence, i dont, rambling, please someone tell me im all wrong and stupied, cuz i already know i am, i just think its funny,  OH YEAH! MY MATH POINT! its just, negitive 1 cancels out positive 1, creating what you might call emptyness, but really, you shouldnt even try to call it, cuz thats getting away from it, alota fuks call it VOID
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America is a rapist.
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