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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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You are only reporting your subjective beliefs about what you think you have experienced and your belief that what you experienced is "the reality".
Any religious person including fivepointer (their personal variation) will tell me the same thing.
Once again...
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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 MarkostheGnostic
Elder
 
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,224
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes
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 Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: daytripper23]
#8559802 - 06/24/08 08:06 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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You are wrong if you think that all theologians hail from the same perspective. There are demythologizers like J.S. Spong, and going back to the 1960s there was the "Death of God" theology of Thomas J.J. Altizer, and before him the great Paul Tillich (The Eternal Now, The Courage to Be). There is the issue of what Tillich called one's "Ultimate Concern" and there is the notion of 'Ultimate Reality' which theology calls G-O-D. I won't even go into the new Gnostic theologians who have emerged in the wake of the Nag Hammadi discovery of 1945.
There are aspects of God which are described anthropomorphically because we cannot get out of our own anthropos stance as human beings. But there are also transpersonal understandings of God that go back 1000 years to Dionysus the Areopagite, a Christian Neoplatonist, and mystics closer to our present time who were all Christian for good reason. Christ is the Christian term for a Living reality, a superconscious Ultimate Reality in which all of life "lives and moves and has its being," to quote Paul. Now, if a person has some kind of emotional obstacles that prevents him or her from discerning the real meanings underneath archaic language, than that is their shortcoming and their loss. There would need to be a transcendental awareness (call it faith) which would allow an individual to 'sense' the value in Christian theology, howsoever encrusted in bullshit it might be. Then, one would either take upon oneself the task to sift through the dross to find the gold, like Marie Curie sifted though tons of pitchblend ore for a couple of grams of Radium, or have the humility to ask others for assitance. God knows I have sought, and asked and found great value.
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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daytripper23
Wanker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,604
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Quote:
You are wrong if you think that all theologians hail from the same perspective. There are demythologizers like J.S. Spong, and going back to the 1960s there was the "Death of God" theology of Thomas J.J. Altizer, and before him the great Paul Tillich (The Eternal Now, The Courage to Be). There is the issue of what Tillich called one's "Ultimate Concern" and there is the notion of 'Ultimate Reality' which theology calls G-O-D. I won't even go into the new Gnostic theologians who have emerged in the wake of the Nag Hammadi discovery of 1945.
While I do not at all understand the specifics of their viewpoints, you wouldn't have mentioned them if they were not all testament to a historical legitimacy of Christianity. Admittedly this bias is a great generalization, one which arises out of the dynamic of perspective more than anything else. (considering where you are coming from, I don't understand how you can be so critical of this).
But in addition to this, the incompetence of theological academia in terms of legitimacy is thoroughly documented.
The world is neither flat, the center of the universe, nor stagnant. Science has a way of really rubbing the mistakes in the face of Christians, but history does not. History comes down to documentation, rather than empiricism, and can therefore always be disputed. We know that Christianity has a history of dogmatic science, why should we doubt that the christian inspired history is any different? Because history comes down to documentation rather than pragmatism, there can always be considerable doubt, which dogmatism capitalizes upon.
We can assume that Christian history has the same sort of dogma as its science has held in the past, only there is very little to compete with this dogma. Think about it, during the reinassance, the the age of science, the enlightenment, there were these major revalations that completely disputed dogmatic science. But were there any huge discoveries concerning history? I think we must assume they are still there.
This would be my questionaire:
If applicable, can mushrooms induce a religious experience
Do biblical stories have special effects that I would describe as "trippy'?
Most importantly, do many biblical stories such as the crucifixion, or Adam and Eve have an intuitive connection with the overall societies position towards mushrooms ("objective"), or natures effect on the tripper (objective), or the intrinsic experience of tripping (subjective).
IMO These stoner (I think what were really talking about is philosophical, and stoner is a low blow) questions have alot more to do with the truth of christianity, than a bunch of historians and scholars who are presumably attempting to justify their religion.
PS. Marcos, I dig your posting most of the time, but I really don't understand how you dispute this. Do you think the metaphor of Christianity is at all applicable to the psychedelic experience? It seems strange to me for someone to realize such an intimate connection (I mean both can be explicit revelations concerning something extremely specific), and then dispute practical implications of this:
The forbidden fruit? It seems like if you make the basic connection, things like this are implied...
Edited by daytripper23 (06/25/08 12:46 AM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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How do you properly address the urine drinking when concerning psilocybes?? Why not both. Like... Bread and Wine.
Cool like a cucumber. Fiery red dragon. IMO.
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Tchan909
facefaulted
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 3,389
Loc: SF Bay Area
Last seen: 2 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: backfromthedead]
#8561261 - 06/25/08 04:52 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Amanita muscaria involves urine-drinking, not psilocybes...
Very, very different subjects.
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not necessarily stoned, but... beautiful.
The Albert Hofmann Collection
Doctors and other wizards are forbidden under Martian Law!
Edited by Tchan909 (06/25/08 04:56 AM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Tchan909]
#8561266 - 06/25/08 04:56 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Urine-drinking concerns Amanita muscaria, not psilocybes...
Very, very different subjects.
Soma is a mystery, sir. Living waters??
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Tchan909
facefaulted
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 3,389
Loc: SF Bay Area
Last seen: 2 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: backfromthedead]
#8561268 - 06/25/08 04:58 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Soma's a mystery, indeed. However, it is not a mystery that amatoxins are purified in the liver and secreted, in still-psychoactive form, in the urine, whereas psilocybin and psilocin are not.
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not necessarily stoned, but... beautiful.
The Albert Hofmann Collection
Doctors and other wizards are forbidden under Martian Law!
Edited by Tchan909 (06/25/08 04:58 AM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Tchan909]
#8561289 - 06/25/08 05:07 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Soma's a mystery, indeed. However, it is not a mystery that amatoxins are purified in the liver and secreted, in still-psychoactive form, in the urine, whereas psilocybin and psilocin are not.
An alchemical process you say?? Pure Gold, imo.
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Tchan909
facefaulted
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 3,389
Loc: SF Bay Area
Last seen: 2 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: backfromthedead]
#8561296 - 06/25/08 05:12 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Sure, if the gold you're looking for can get you really smashed and comes out of a urethra. 
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not necessarily stoned, but... beautiful.
The Albert Hofmann Collection
Doctors and other wizards are forbidden under Martian Law!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,224
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Icelander]
#8561734 - 06/25/08 09:25 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Well, if you want to continue to convolute your own mental processes:
"reporting your subjective beliefs about what you think you have experienced and your belief that what you experienced." instead of hearing a usually articulate report about experience, that is your own problem, and a problem it is. That makes me wonder if you so mistrust the immediacy of your own experience that it follows that you could not possibly trust the immediacy of anyone else's experience. It is not a matter of "thinking" and "believing" after the fact.
Moreover, the Experience of Ultimate Reality insofar as humans can experience it and live to report it, has been 'reported' for millennia. Perhaps you immediately register such a report in your 'Feeling function' and just as immediately judge any reporter as demonstrating 'self-importance' - which in turn you resent/reject/resist. The possibility of this encounter, as I said, has been reported in many cultures under many religious and philosophical frameworks, and the Experience has always been radically life-changing or else it hasn't been a genuine religious experience of a mystical type. I do not need to defend the truthfulness of my report, you simply have to choose open your mind to the possibility of mystical experience. If I am wrong, and all my teachers back to antiquity have been wrong, then Icelander must be right.
Clearly, Ultimate Reality IS. If only the "hind parts" of God are available (Exodus 33:23), then here is yet another ancient anthropomorphic bit of midrash indicating a limited glimpse of Eternity because "no man may see me and yet live” (Exodus 33:20). This idea is presented in the Greek myth of Semele, mother of Dionysus, who was granted anything by Zeus and she insisted in seeing Zeus as he was Ultimately. Zeus tried to disuade her because finitude cannot exist in Infinitude, and so he manifested his True Reality and Semele was incinerated. In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is shown Krishna's Universal Form, but in that tradition, extinction of life does not occur interestingly. Do you have a western prejudice to the former traditions, or do you have a metaphysical prejudice to the impossibility of experiencing Eternity in any capacity?
I seem to belong to a branched tradition in my own personal time-line that goes back to Ram Dass Ramana Maharshi, and Indian traditions, back to Patanjali and thence to Buddha on the one hand, and to R.M. Bucke, William James, Teresa of Avila and the western traditions back to Plotinus, Paul, Jesus, Philo, Plato and Socrates on the other, with lots and lots of Easterners and Westerners in between. All of them speak to the Experiencing of Eternity, Here and Now, while yet embodied, in some capacity, communion or union. I have always felt at home among the mystics. Apparently, you do not. Remember this though: Doubt, is just denial at the spiritual level. This is delusion? This is truth? This is Real? This is unreal? Gnostic? Agnostic?
Shalom.
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,224
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: daytripper23]
#8561784 - 06/25/08 09:48 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Franco Fabbro's article depicting Amanita muscarias, and snails (apparently which consume the mushrooms, filter the toxins and then are themselves consumed by Christian worshipers). Unearthed mosaic floor of an ancient Basilica.
'Testamenta Christi' (see my own description in my article 'The Sacred Heart of Jesus as the Sacred Mushroom' on my blog www.markosthegnostic.org). 400+ year old drawing by Jacob Boehme, Christian mystic.
 Personal letter to me from the late great Dr. Albert Hofmann concerning the "LSD inebriation" (close enough to the mushroom of your inquiry, considering it was Dr. Hofmann who first identified and named the substance Psilocybin) and Christian truth.
Lastly, Christianity, like all religions, are based on MYTH. The facticity and historicity of Christian history cannot be taken from biblical stories and historicity is of secondary or tertiary importance to me personally. I agree with your discernment of documentation versus historical evidence. I do not base the importance of Christ on historicity but on the truth of myth. Physical history does not equal Ultimate Reality, just physical reality. Ultimate Reality is THAT which produced the Primal Singularity. I detest the 'Jesus wants you to be rich' people who call themselves Christians, and I am well aware of the atrocities committed in the name of Christ. It's all irrelevant to the path of Illumination and always has been irrelevant. Horrors were perpetrated by power-mongers, not lovers of wisdom and truth. Like antimatter held in magnetic bottles, I find (metaphorically you understand) truth to be contained in myth. Material bottles cannot hold antimatter without mutual annihilation and physical historicity cannot hold Truth any more than the supernatural stories of the Bible can be historically true without annihilating faith or reason. I require both faith and reason, and so biblical containment in myth seems to work quite well for me. I trust you grok my metaphors!
I hope this clarifies your confusion on my position.
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Please Markospointer tell me something I haven't heard.
The problem here is all yours. All I say is the Ultimate Reality is infinite and I cannot know it. It seems the height of arrogance and ignorance to claim because I have had large experiences that I cannot explain at this time that I have touched and now know what reality is. There is no evidence for this. It's a big ol ego trip based in personal need Marko's. Fivepointer has described his conversion experience and how the holy spirit descended on him and now he knows the truth through the spirit. How ever somehow when he says it you don't believe it or agree.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,224
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Icelander]
#8563693 - 06/25/08 06:01 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I don't know what manner of religious experience fivepointer had, but whatever experience it was, it does not communicate itself to me. All I ever saw when he wasn't blocked, was a Procrustean attempt to force every life experience into the mold of some scriptural verse. I can use biblical words to help describe something if I see it being illustrative, but I do not use such words to hammer at life. I am not anything like fivepointer other than the most general category of what William James called "twice born," but I do not force my experience into a theological context and then judge others with it. There is nothing arrogant about my reports, but that charge is exactly the charge, in effect, made by the persecutors of 'heretics' around the world. Jesus speaking as the Divine Will, the "I AM" of Exodus, and the Jewish multitudes accused him of blasphemy while later believers mistakenly understood the reference to be Jesus the man, and no other man.
His Arabic devotee, al Hallaj, pretty much makes the same claim - says "I am Truth," and with Islamic indignation this time they cut off his hands and feet and crucify him before beheading him. Same misunderstanding of those two by the indignant power-mongers who simply had no such experience of what either was trying to convey, and Hallaj's personal ego was being accused of the height of arrogance - apostasy.
Meister Eckhart writes things like: "These eyes which see God are the same eyes by which God sees me," thereby positing a co-extensiveness of human beinghood with Absolute Being. What happens? If natural causes didn't kill him first, the Dominican inquisitors would have burned him at the stake in front of Cologne cathedral, Germany. That time it was Catholic 'Christians' who were indignant.
The list go on and on. I believe in Reality. I derive from Reality, as does the rest of the manifest universe. Only difference seems to be that the locus called Markos is more sentient than a cubic foot of granite in a New Hampshire mountain. My 'I' has relative and Absolute derivatives. Some of 'me' is spacio-temporal and some of 'me' is co-extensive with Eternal Being - the Real. Same with Jesus, same with you. Sometimes it simply and powerfully occurs to one's sentience that this is the case. That's all. End of report. Simple.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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There is nothing arrogant about my reports, but that charge is exactly the charge, in effect, made by the persecutors of 'heretics' around the world. Jesus speaking as the Divine Will, the "I AM" of Exodus, and the Jewish multitudes accused him of blasphemy while later believers mistakenly understood the reference to be Jesus the man, and no other man.
Markos the martyr. Better watch out cause the Icelander is gonna get you.
The point for me is that it is impossible to know what reality is. Just because many people from the past say this or that about it doesn't make it any more so then Echart Tolle saying this is true reality. (although I don't know if he would)
As human animals we have needs, emotional and psychological. Our beliefs about life are important to this end. We seek comfort and safety just as primitive man did when he saw the sun slip below the horizon and felt fear of the unknown power of nature. He feared for his continued existence and sought ways to calm that fear. Thus IMO the Gods were born. We may be down the road a piece but emotionally conditions remain basically the same for us. We cannot understand the chaotic immensity of where we find ourselves. This causes a deep conscious or unconscious uneasiness and we placate it to whatever extent with our beliefs. Whether some of them ultimately turn out to be true I doubt we will ever know.
Just because we feel something to be true, it is very easy to believe it to be true. But to trust in this is ignorant of the fact that we do not know this Universe or ourselves. We are not the creator of this as far as we know although we may be part of the creative force. A brain cell may well not know what the brain is all about or even that it is part of a brain. But if it were aware it might think it was something else entirely.
I can believe that fivepointers beliefs aren't real and that yours or mine are and I'm willing to take that risk but I don't really know for sure. That is an honorable POV IMO. Anything else is hubris.
End of report, simple. For me at least.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
Edited by Icelander (06/26/08 01:02 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Icelander]
#8565875 - 06/26/08 08:47 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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bump
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Bible: A bunch of people on drugs! [Re: Icelander]
#8568654 - 06/26/08 08:28 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I wonder why the Buddhists don't think there is a God and the Christians do. Which one of them do you think knows what "reality" is. 
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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fresh313
journeyman
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,452
Last seen: 2 months, 30 days
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yeah markos your probably right
never drank any amanita pees though,
do you think jesus's disciples were drinking amanita urine, or amanita and wine mix ,
or could have been psilocybin and red wine mix,
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Personally, I believe that Gordon wasson was wrong, that the Soma of the ancient Indus River (Hindus) people was cow-dung spawned Psilocybes, not A. Muscaria. The golden color, the obvious, dependable ecstasis, the colors which harken to writings of the later Tibetan Book of the Dead, and the more-than-possible attribution of Holiness to the Sacred Cows of India by virtue of the Sacred Mushroom which springs from their dung.
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