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 MrSinister
Uncle T
 
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 3,032
Loc: Outworld
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I say it's who is fighting in the MMA match. Some of them might look like a slug fest, but when you get a great jujitsu practicer, you are in for a great ground display.
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"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!"
Tom Brady said:
"We're only going to score 17 points? OK. Is Plax playing defense? I wish he had said 45-42 and gave us a little credit for scoring more points."
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 LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Alot of what you're saying and observing is valid for anyone whose watching MMA, even those who've been watching it for a long time.
I started watching MMA back in 2002, and even now I still get frustrated with certain things you talk about.
But you do have to realize a couple things. As a whole, MMA is still a very young sport. We really haven't seen what the best of the best has to offer, and trust me, even Fedor Emelianenko isn't an accurate representation of the modern MMA.
When you watch the UFC and you do see a lack of skill, which you DO,
it's been over 15 years since the UFC began yet you still have fighters who have no idea what they're doing on the feat or on the ground, etc.
It's like watching football before Blacks were allowed to play, or watching Baseball when people used to still throw underhand pitches.
But alot of what you are saying, is the same thing anyone would be saying who is new to ANY sport.
It's only after you've been observing athletes at their craft for a long time can you begin to appreciate the suttleties of a good grappling match.
In this country especially, the media and television glamorization of fighting has really given people wrong expectations of what a real life fight is like.
Most people who think of "no rules fighting" think of the action sequences they see in Steven Segal Movies, or the quickness and deadly effectiveness of a Jason Bourne.
Yet in places where Martial Arts first stemmed (i.e. countries where people had to learn to fight with their bodies), the ground game and the suttelties of grappling have been alot more embraced.
And if you think "real" martial arts is kung fu or shit that reminds you of Bruce Lee Movies, you really don't understand the history and development of martial arts in general.
Jiu Jitsu is one of the oldest forms of fighting, yet you don't see many martial arts movies in America showing old monks using forces of momentum to catch their opponent in an uchi mata.
In fact, in many oriental countries, the two biggest most influential Martial Arts forms are Jiu Jitsu and Judo. And both are based on grappling and submission techniques.
Yet again in this country, when you hear "Martial Arts" your immediate reaction is to think of Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee using fancy stunts to bring an opponent down.
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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 Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: The_Bringer]
#8571207 - 06/27/08 02:13 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
The_Bringer said:
I'm a big boxing fan, not too fond of MMA at all. Back in the day (mid 90's) I would get UFC fight cards on VHS tape circuits and watch them at home. It appealed to me then, but I was 15 at the time.
The older I got, and the more I saw, the less I liked. Here's my thoughts......
In MMA, a fighter has to train several things a week. Strength, conditioning, boxing, muay thai, wrestling, and submission fighting. They typically alternate days and work on 1 thing per day.
It's kind of impossible to perfect all those things, let alone even 1 of them, when you're training them only once or twice a week.
Then they get in the cage, and it degenerates from there.
See, to me, that's part of the beauty of the sport. You have so many different elements involved, that a weakness or strength in one facet of training can make the difference in the fight.
This is also a big element of strategy and changing one's gameplan throughout a fight.
For example, Hughes vs Pele Landi-jons
Pele comes in thinking he can submit the wrestler, Hughes keeps taking him down and defending submissions. Pele changes up his game plan, and in the next takedown attempt Hughes makes, he eats a flying knee and goes limp.
And to say it's impossible for a fighter to perfect certain aspects of their game, it sure appears so at times, especially if you're a boxing fan and you're trying to gauge the punching skills of say, a Tito Ortiz.
But you do have to realize, that many fighters came in as specialists, people who are world-renowned in certain skill sets that you would otherwise not know about.
World champion kickboxers, olympic medalist judo practitioners, nationally ranked collegiate wrestlers. These are all athletes at the very pinnacle of their crafts.
I mean yeah, Cain Velasquez may not have the best stick-and-move, but he'll get single-legged takedowns better than most guys out there.
Quote:
The entire concept of MMA is really awesome. It poses the question: Which fighting style is the best in the world? Interesting, right? Until you see it in action.
What you end up getting is 2 guys, with a very basic (limited) grasp of most combat arts, and 1 strongpoint. They focus on their strongpoint (wrestlers go for take downs, strikers want to stand up, submission artists shoot for legs, etc...) and forget the rest.
What happens why you try to blend all of your favorite foods into one delicious snack? The same thing happens when you try to blend all forms of combat into one particular fighter.
Uhhh, comparing combat fighting to mixing snack foods isn't really the smartest way to make an anology.
But I get your point, you'd rather watch a specialist performing a singlized craft. Especiall if a fighter is weak in certain facets.
But like I said, that's the beauty of the sport. The varities, the possibilities, the combination of skill sets is so incredibly diverse between fighters that you never really know how a fight will play out. That's exactly why i love MMA so much.
Quote:
Aside from that, MMA never offers much excitement. Usually you have 2 guys, grappling each other on the ground, poking the face of their opponet with their elbow, until the referee makes them stand back up....at which point they go to the ground again to repeat the process.
Either that, or you get 1 guy who come sout like a bull and knocks the other dude flat the fuck out....before you can ever open a bottle of beer. There's no drama involved in something like that. That's why boxing appeals to me so much more.
In boxing, anything can happen. A guy can get floored, get back up, floor the other guy, that guy gets up, and they battle until the bell. Or a guy can completely dominate his opponet for 9 rounds, until getting careless and caught with a huge punch in the 10th, ending the fight.
Boxing allows drama to build, round after round until you reach the climax. UFC is either no drama, or a quick climax.
Now you're just making some lousey generalizations. Boxing bouts build up in drama round after round untill a climax? Oh please.
Where was the so called "climax" in De La Jolla-Mayweather? The part when the audience fell asleep? Or the uncountable heavyweight bouts where they spend about 20 attempts at hugging each other in every round?
Like in any sport, you have the boring contests, and you have exciting contests.
If you haven't seen a great MMA fight, there are plenty of things to explore.
Go watch Maeda vs Miguel Torres on mmalinker.com and tell me how that was "just a boring ground fight".
Quote:
Name me any UFC/MMA fights that have ever been anywhere near as exciting as the following boxing rivalries.....
Barrera/Morales
Ali/Frazier
Bowe/Holyfield
Marquez/Vazquez
De La Hoya/Mosley
Or even the following single bout matches.....
Katsidis/Casamayor
Cotto/Torres
Hagler/Hearns
Hearns/Leonard
There aren't any. Why?
Because it would be impossible for you to sit there and accurately gauge the excitement of an MMA bout when all you're doing is comparing it to a punching contest, which what boxing basically is.
I could name numerous fights with all kinds of submission attempts, escapes, position reversals, amazing demonstrations of defense and technique, and you would have no idea what's going on because you're too busy counting punches.
Like in any sport that you are unfamiliar with, it's impossible to appreciate the suttelties.
It's why most Americans claim Soccer is boring, because they don't seem enough scoring, while a European can appreciate all of the skill and craft going on throughout a match, even if the game ends with a 0-0 score.
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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The_Bringer
Newbie
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Tennessee
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#8571373 - 06/27/08 03:06 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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"See, to me, that's part of the beauty of the sport. You have so many different elements involved, that a weakness or strength in one facet of training can make the difference in the fight.
This is also a big element of strategy and changing one's gameplan throughout a fight.
For example, Hughes vs Pele Landi-jons
Pele comes in thinking he can submit the wrestler, Hughes keeps taking him down and defending submissions. Pele changes up his game plan, and in the next takedown attempt Hughes makes, he eats a flying knee and goes limp.
And to say it's impossible for a fighter to perfect certain aspects of their game, it sure appears so at times, especially if you're a boxing fan and you're trying to gauge the punching skills of say, a Tito Ortiz.
But you do have to realize, that many fighters came in as specialists, people who are world-renowned in certain skill sets that you would otherwise not know about.
World champion kickboxers, olympic medalist judo practitioners, nationally ranked collegiate wrestlers. These are all athletes at the very pinnacle of their crafts.
I mean yeah, Cain Velasquez may not have the best stick-and-move, but he'll get single-legged takedowns better than most guys out there."
I do realize that there are many martial arts specalists rooted in the UFC, Pride, EliteXC, and MMA in general. There are some skilled practitioners out there, and even a few guys who I will go out of my way to watch fight (BJ Penn for example.).
"Uhhh, comparing combat fighting to mixing snack foods isn't really the smartest way to make an anology.
But I get your point, you'd rather watch a specialist performing a singlized craft. Especiall if a fighter is weak in certain facets.
But like I said, that's the beauty of the sport. The varities, the possibilities, the combination of skill sets is so incredibly diverse between fighters that you never really know how a fight will play out. That's exactly why i love MMA so much.."
Hey! I liked my snack food analogy! But I can't disagree with what you've said here, personally I'd rather watch someone who is highly skilled in their chosen art (meaning singular) operate like a surgeon, than someone who has multiple arts but only 1 strong point.
"Now you're just making some lousey generalizations. Boxing bouts build up in drama round after round untill a climax? Oh please.
Where was the so called "climax" in De La Jolla-Mayweather? The part when the audience fell asleep? Or the uncountable heavyweight bouts where they spend about 20 attempts at hugging each other in every round?
Like in any sport, you have the boring contests, and you have exciting contests.
If you haven't seen a great MMA fight, there are plenty of things to explore.
Go watch Maeda vs Miguel Torres on mmalinker.com and tell me how that was "just a boring ground fight".."
Now you're the one generalizing. De La Hoya/Mayweather was a mere business transaction, which occurs in combat sport from time to time. I like the way you went out of your way to think of the worst possible fight to use as a pillar for your argument.
I could easily have mentioned some MMA bore fests or obvious con-jobs like Kimbo Slice vs. Bo Cantrell (Cantrell tapped before Kimbo mounted him.), or Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie II, Andrei Arlovski vs. Fabricio Werdum, Koscheck vs. Sanchez, Sylvia vs. Vera, etc... I could go on and on, but I digress.
As for the Heavyweight division, it's not there anymore. My suggestion is to move on. Look at the Welterweight division, the lightweight division, Middlweight, etc...
Speaking clearly in terms of 2007, boxing is on a high (still is). That's why it's making such a comeback.
"There aren't any. Why?
Because it would be impossible for you to sit there and accurately gauge the excitement of an MMA bout when all you're doing is comparing it to a punching contest, which what boxing basically is.
I could name numerous fights with all kinds of submission attempts, escapes, position reversals, amazing demonstrations of defense and technique, and you would have no idea what's going on because you're too busy counting punches.
Like in any sport that you are unfamiliar with, it's impossible to appreciate the suttelties.
It's why most Americans claim Soccer is boring, because they don't seem enough scoring, while a European can appreciate all of the skill and craft going on throughout a match, even if the game ends with a 0-0 score. "
First off, I don't count punches. We have Compubox for that. 
But your point is valid, however when I watch MMA I do not compare it to boxing. I compared it in my post for comparison's sake. There is no comparison to be made since they are both dramatically different. It's jsut from my point of view (as a fan of combat sports, who loves to be thrilled with drama to the point where I stand up and yell at my TV) boxing provides me with more opportunities for that because it's more drawn out and drama can build accordingly.
But hey, it's apples and oranges man. I'm just speaking my mind, same as you. I can appreciate the difference of opinion. I have a handful of MMA guys I watch to this day. I'm just saying I've never seen anything in MMA that could compare to Corrales/Castillo I.
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LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: The_Bringer]
#8571458 - 06/27/08 03:31 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
The_Bringer said:
I'm just saying I've never seen anything in MMA that could compare to Corrales/Castillo I.
Uhhh...no fight in the history of mankind can compare to Castillo-Corrales, let's get one thing straight.
I'm also a big boxing fan, been watching alot since the 90's, huge Sugar Ray Leonard fan, and I can appreciate the craft and strategic genius of a Bernard Hopkins.
But let's get one thing straight. No match, no fight, no bar fight, no MMA fight, and no other boxing match i've ever witnessed, can compare to Castillo-Corrales.
When I saw that full fight, the first thing that even ran through my head was "YES, i have never seen an MMA fight this good".
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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The_Bringer
Newbie
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Tennessee
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#8571478 - 06/27/08 03:36 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidSmoke said:
Quote:
The_Bringer said:
I'm just saying I've never seen anything in MMA that could compare to Corrales/Castillo I.
Uhhh...no fight in the history of mankind can compare to Castillo-Corrales, let's get one thing straight.
I'm also a big boxing fan, been watching alot since the 90's, huge Sugar Ray Leonard fan, and I can appreciate the craft and strategic genius of a Bernard Hopkins.
But let's get one thing straight. No match, no fight, no bar fight, no MMA fight, and no other boxing match i've ever witnessed, can compare to Castillo-Corrales.
When I saw that full fight, the first thing that even ran through my head was "YES, i have never seen an MMA fight this good".
You've namedropped Bernard Hopkins, you are now my friend whether you like it or not. I grew up a few blocks away from him while he was still in jail. Hometown hero of sorts. Well him and Sylvester Stallone (not even sure if he's a Philadelphian but he filmed all the Rocky movies in Kensington.)
Perhaps Corrales/Castillo was a bad example given it's drama. Still the greatest fight in the history of the world IMO. Still can't believe Chico's dead. 
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LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: The_Bringer]
#8571534 - 06/27/08 03:52 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
The_Bringer said:
Now you're the one generalizing. De La Hoya/Mayweather was a mere business transaction, which occurs in combat sport from time to time. I like the way you went out of your way to think of the worst possible fight to use as a pillar for your argument.
I could easily have mentioned some MMA bore fests or obvious con-jobs like Kimbo Slice vs. Bo Cantrell (Cantrell tapped before Kimbo mounted him.), or Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie II, Andrei Arlovski vs. Fabricio Werdum, Koscheck vs. Sanchez, Sylvia vs. Vera, etc... I could go on and on, but I digress.
As for the Heavyweight division, it's not there anymore. My suggestion is to move on. Look at the Welterweight division, the lightweight division, Middlweight, etc...
Speaking clearly in terms of 2007, boxing is on a high (still is). That's why it's making such a comeback.
You're missing the point, which is in both sports, you have plenty of boring ass contests.
I was just pointing out how it's silly to generalize boxing matches as some sort of movie script (i.e. with build up and some well-timed climax). When in many cases, you get boring ass fights like John "I just drank a keg before walking in the ring" Ruiz.
Anyone can point out the numerous boring ass MMA fights, we've seen 'em all.
If you want to see an MMA fight that pits two highly skilled well-rounded fighters in a competitive bout that goes the distance...
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira vs Mauricio Rua
Hayoto Sakurai vs Jens Pulver
Diego Sanchez vs Karo Parisyan
Joachim Hansen vs Eddie Alvarez
Shinya Aoki vs Akira Kikuchi
Wanderlei Silva vs Dan Henderson I
Gilbert Melendez vs Tatsuya Kawajiri
is a good start
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: The_Bringer]
#8571554 - 06/27/08 03:57 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
The_Bringer said:
You've namedropped Bernard Hopkins, you are now my friend whether you like it or not. I grew up a few blocks away from him while he was still in jail. Hometown hero of sorts. Well him and Sylvester Stallone (not even sure if he's a Philadelphian but he filmed all the Rocky movies in Kensington.)
I'm scared though, if the Calzaghe fight becomes a reality. Joe is a friggin' beast.
Quote:
Perhaps Corrales/Castillo was a bad example given it's drama. Still the greatest fight in the history of the world IMO. Still can't believe Chico's dead.
No. Fight. Compares.
At all. You couldn't even write a movie script as good as Castillo-Corrales.
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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The_Bringer
Newbie
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Tennessee
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#8571607 - 06/27/08 04:13 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidSmoke said:
Quote:
The_Bringer said:
You've namedropped Bernard Hopkins, you are now my friend whether you like it or not. I grew up a few blocks away from him while he was still in jail. Hometown hero of sorts. Well him and Sylvester Stallone (not even sure if he's a Philadelphian but he filmed all the Rocky movies in Kensington.)
I'm scared though, if the Calzaghe fight becomes a reality. Joe is a friggin' beast.
Quote:
Perhaps Corrales/Castillo was a bad example given it's drama. Still the greatest fight in the history of the world IMO. Still can't believe Chico's dead.
No. Fight. Compares.
At all. You couldn't even write a movie script as good as Castillo-Corrales.
The Hopkins/Calzaghe fight already happened dude, in April. Calzaghe took a split decision, I had it 114-113 for Hopkins. B-Hop dropped him in the first round, so that extra point scored him the win in my opinion.
Exactly how you would think it would have been. Hopkins made Calzaghe fight sloppy for the first 6 rounds, then Calzaghe threw a bunch of punches in the final 6 rounds. Joe missed, horribly. I think he got the decision on activity alone, if you watch the fight you see him just alapping at Hopkins wildly, and Hopkins catching Joe's punches on his gloves.
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LiquidSmoke
My title iscooler thanyours - DBK
Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 17,453
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 5 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: The_Bringer]
#8571838 - 06/27/08 05:37 PM (2 months, 7 days ago) |
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wow, i sure missed the bus on that one
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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Cannabischarlie
Yarry's Apprentice
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 7,155
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#8644895 - 07/16/08 10:21 PM (1 month, 19 days ago) |
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looks like I created more of a discussion than I would have thought 
Whats with that guy on that "Tap Out" show named "Punkass"
what kind of a name for a fighter is Punk Ass? makes you sound like a puss....
shouldnt it be "Bad Ass"? 
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Madtowntripper
Sumbeams From Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12,403
Last seen: 1 hour, 47 minutes
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Okay, since you mentioned Tapout.
I don't claim to know anything about MMA, but what the fuck is with those two losers on Tapout's show on Spike? The fucking dude in the face-paint and the boonie hat? Who the hell is that clown?
And his sidekick is some stoned-out hippie with what appear to be dreadlocks.
They both seem like absolute idiots. Do they own the thing or what? They aren't fighters, are they?
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Cannabischarlie
Yarry's Apprentice
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 7,155
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Okay, since you mentioned Tapout.
I don't claim to know anything about MMA, but what the fuck is with those two losers on Tapout's show on Spike? The fucking dude in the face-paint and the boonie hat? Who the hell is that clown?
And his sidekick is some stoned-out hippie with what appear to be dreadlocks.
They both seem like absolute idiots. Do they own the thing or what? They aren't fighters, are they?
I know huh?
I think I only ever see it with the sound off.... the local bars play UFC shows because it attracts people. I think this show is often on, but who watches that crap?
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Jadian
Ninja
Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 6,258
Loc: Fishy Island
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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No, you guys, those dudes are the owner of the Tapout clothing line and sponsors of up and coming fighters. They are morons but they do a lot of good things for the industry and do a lot of PR for the UFC and shit.
They definitely aren't fighters.
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LNC's official Alaskan stoner
 
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Cubenisseur
Mad Props
Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1,385
Loc: Indian Land
Last seen: 15 days, 5 hours
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: Jadian]
#8647527 - 07/17/08 03:21 PM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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"The Budha Fa is most profound; among all the theories in the world, it is the
most intricate and extraordinary science.
In order to explore this domain, humankind must fundamentally change its conventional thinking. Otherwise, the truth of the universe will forever remain a mystery to humankind, and everyday people will forever crawl within the boundary delimited by their own ignorance."
-- Master Li Hongzhi, from "Lunyu,"
the introduction to Zhuan Falun
* The Buddha Fa--
the universal principles and law;
the way of the universe.
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Jadian
Ninja
Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 6,258
Loc: Fishy Island
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: UFC or MMA in general lame? [Re: Cubenisseur]
#8648707 - 07/17/08 08:56 PM (1 month, 18 days ago) |
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Bas Rutten is a badass. We laugh about those video's while we're training all the time.
"On the streets there are no rules, some say eye for an eye but I say two eyes for an eye, that way they're blind and you can hit them." 
"Kick in the balls! Elbow to the nose! Knee to the balls!"
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LNC's official Alaskan stoner
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