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Wiccan_Seeker
INFJcounselor-idealist

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 16,831
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours

I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing
#8561771 - 06/25/08 09:42 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

But, neither do I know anything either.

This post will be a bit of a mindfuck, so only read on if you are up for that and if you're open to what I'm telling you. Anything anyone says can be countered with "no I don't think so" so this thread is only for those willing to think along :heart:

Here we go..

You are likely sitting in front of your computer at a desk or similar place. Before you go "duuuh" at that, verify how you know that.

You could say: I see the room, feel my ass on the chair, smell the room, hear the noises of my environment..

But that isn't true.

When you look, you don't actually SEE what is out there. According to our understanding of biology, the senses provide a coded sensory feed to the brain through your neurons, like a webcam translates what it "sees" to a coded string of intermitted electricity that can be sent through the wire to your computer.

There could be a trillion colors out there, but the human eye can see only so many. In the dark, you cannot see the body heat of your partner, or the coolness of the fridge for instance.

Instead we get an interpretation of what might be out there, and it is like that with all our senses.

So all the world out there, the screen you see, the chair beneath you, the scent of the flowers in your windowsill, this whole world you are used to experiencing, it is not what is actually out there. It is at best an interpretation of what is out there. You do not experience the world. You experience sensory feed.

How far down the rabbit's hole are you willing to go?

Your body, too, you only know of your sensory feed. You could say "this is my arm" because you sense that it is there in many ways.

But is it?

We know that what you know as your arm is at most a limited perception of what it might be. You have no idea what your arm in reality is, all you have is sensory feed that gives you an impression of your arm.

The arm might in fact not even exist.

Here I'm going to lose a few but bear with me.

You can feel your arm and say "this is my arm". But all you really got as proof is an awareness of an arm, according to biology an awareness generated by a very limited perception of what it really might be.

You can move your arm around and go "look" but what does it prove? All you have is sensory feed of an arm moving. There might not even be motion. There might not even be an arm.

Lets take it up a notch.

You could say: "eyes translate what they see to sensory feed, so there has to be something that is an arm."

But we only know eyes through awareness of eyes. We only know neurons transmitting the data feed through perception of them. We only know brains and what they do through our perception of them.

We don't know if there really is an arm. We don't know if there are senses, neurons and brains.

The entire world as we know it may not exist. Your body in that world may not exist. All things we know could well be illusory.

So what is left?

Close your eyes for a moment and observe.

There is within you an Awareness. It is like the open sky. Through it float thoughts, emotions and sensations.

All that you believe in or don't believe in, are based upon observation, and speculation on observation. Now we have begun eliminating that which may be illusory, we have eliminated the world as you know it and your body as we know it.

Now comes the most difficult move of all.

You have lived your life and built a personality on those experiences. But the experiences may well be illusory. That means that even your Self, the "I" that is laughing, crying, loving, hating, enjoying and suffering, may be illusory. Even this persona you hold so dear, this "I" you cling onto so tenaciously.. Is not what you are.

So what are you?

You are Awareness, nothing but pure awareness. You are like the open sky, limitless, and clouds of thought, emotion and perception float through it. But they are not what you are. What you are is the Awareness itself.

You say your arm is yours because you sense it, but you sense the chair too, and the world around you.

You insist on saying you are separate from the world, but are you? Your arm and the chair both are clouds of sensation in the open sky of Awareness, that is what you really are.

There is no Me & The Universe, there is no Universe and there is no Me. All there is is Awareness, and things moving, ever-changing in that Awareness. There is no outside world or inside world, it is all One.

All that separates you and me is that different thoughts, emotions and sensations flow through us. The ten thousand miles between us only exist in the thoughts, emotions and sensations that flow through us. But the Awareness may be one and the same.

All Awarenesses may be One, and all the thought, emotion and sensation its creation. We are One. We are the Force Without Form experiencing Itself.

If a big comet comes and wipes us all out, it will destroy the world and our bodies, all of which are illusory. But what we are is Awareness, pure consciousness, we never were anything other or more than that. We have always been Awareness and always will be, for it is all we are and can be.

Birth and death are just illusion, with birth the illusion that is our body is born into the illusion that is the world, and with death we leave it all behind, shed the illusion.

But Awareness, pure Consciousness, is all we ever were and will be, because it is all we ever can be.

We are the Force Without Form experiencing itself.

That is all.

--------------------

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lmfsmoke
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 96
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8561794 - 06/25/08 09:52 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

beautiful man, the picture you painted in my head was very nice man changed my perception a little bit, i recently saw a video on what your talking about, but you finished up the puzzle

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Genesis 1:29 - Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you"

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Wiccan_Seeker
INFJcounselor-idealist

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 16,831
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: lmfsmoke]
#8561805 - 06/25/08 09:54 AM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Thanks

Your computer screen, you get sensory feed from it as well as of your arm. Who says the screen isn't a part of yourself also?

I had the privilege to be part of a lecture on these very topics, stone cold sober, when I had a transpersonal experience.

I could feel my butt on the chair, not just from the butt sitting on it, but also from the chair, feeling the weight upon it. I experienced "myself" from "my surroundings" as much as I experienced "my surroundings" from "myself". It was as if my surroundings were ennerved and I received data feed from them.

You could say "dude! you were imagining things!" or "Thats a flashback" but was it? Was this One-ness any more illusory than the day-to-day seperateness of body and world?

Most of the time you look at stuff you aren't consciously seeing your nose either. It takes my reminding for you to become disturbingly aware of it again, that there is in fact an nose in the far inner corners of your visual field.

You don't need it so you cancel it out, the awareness of your nose, the awareness of your heartbeat, or the awareness of experiencing your body from your surroundings. But you can be reminded of it, and if that reminder hits you just in the right way, you can experience it, and it will feel natural. Disturbing, but natural.

For awareness of your heartbeat, mere words on a screen are enough. For experiencing my body from my surroundings and experiencing them as One, a cascade of ego-shattering insights brought about by a lecture by an Advaida Vedanta teacher was required.
But I remembered! And the result was Direct Experience.

The Advaida Vedanta teacher exposed the illusory nature of the world as we perceive it, this deeply sunk in, separating barriers (which too are illusory) came tumbling down and I no longer was separate from the outside world.

I wasn't tripping, or under hypnosis, but the insights of the lectures sunk in so deeply that my illusion of separateness from the environment lost structural integrity for half an hour.

You couldn't imagine the utter, utter bliss that filled me in that state, the complete and total LOVE that permeated everything.

Its all you.

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MisterMuscaria
Dr.WizardNinja

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1,667
Loc: Mega-Lo Mart

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8562901 - 06/25/08 02:29 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

I remember during a trip a few weeks back I was thinking about things along similar lines and how even if I died perhaps my mind would create my next world from memories of my past world and I might never know I even died, because the endless dream that I chose to reside in as afterlife was so much like my beforelife. In a sense it would create a new dimension, because people would mourn me in the dimension I was born in, but in the dimension I shifted into after death they are alive, well and interacting with me.

I figure any world we go onto after we die in this one is going to be JUST AS REAL and JUST AS IMAGINAIRY.

--------------------

"Do, do not or try not, there is no try"

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Middleman
Non-Sense

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 4,231

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8562931 - 06/25/08 02:39 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:

The Advaida Vedanta teacher exposed the illusory nature of the world as we perceive it, this deeply sunk in, separating barriers (which too are illusory) came tumbling down and I no longer was separate from the outside world.

Who was it?

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Wiccan_Seeker
INFJcounselor-idealist

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 16,831
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Middleman]
#8563015 - 06/25/08 03:05 PM (3 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Who was it?

Sorry, won't tell. He is no Big Name anyone would know but it is someone anyone can google, and with it have some idea of my geographic location.

Let me just say, no "big name", no one you would know.

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Middleman
Non-Sense

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 4,231

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8563152 - 06/25/08 03:41 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

I can dig that Wiccan. I was just curious. Glad you had that experience. :psychsplit:

I'm going to satsang with Adyashanti next chance I get....

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BrainChemistry
Duplicarius

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 1,115
Loc: Mountains of N. America
Last seen: 1 minute, 29 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Middleman]
#8563248 - 06/25/08 04:07 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Sweet post Wiccan. Heres some thoughts though.

The things we see and perceive, have to be real to some extent. You say our brain takes in sensory inputs and interprets them, but that it may not be taking in all of the possible sensory inputs. However, when I move my arm up and down, I can feel and see it moving. These sensory inputs that I'm feeling in my brain don't come from nothing. Something is happening when I move my arm. Otherwise I would perceive nothing. Sure, you can say that I may not be perceiving what is actually happening, but you can't say nothing is happening at all.

Moving on from this, the only ability I have is to perceive with my senses. Its the only way I to know how to interact with the world. Whats to say that what I see with my eyes is not real? Until you sit before me a device that perceives the world in an entirely different way, and can show that to me in a way I can interpret, I'm going to assume that my reality is real, because I define it to be.

When I close my eyes and feel my awareness...indeed, it is a blank, empty sky at first. But wait....I can put something there. I can choose to think about clouds, or the sun. Now take a different person....they might choose to think about a bird, or a plane. That choice sets my being apart from the other's being. My awareness is the tool of something greater....I guess i'll use the word "soul" here.

Quote:

There is no Me & The Universe, there is no Universe and there is no Me. All there is is Awareness, and things moving, ever-changing in that Awareness. There is no outside world or inside world, it is all One.

This is where you've transitioned from a hypothetical thought process, to trying to define existence in strict terms. The terms "outside" and "inside" world are highly interpretive. I would define outside world as being that which exists beyond my mind, i.e. the things that my mind can sense. The inside world are things that I feel, i.e. emotions, opinions, thoughts.

Maybe the Universe and Me are separate. Maybe my soul has its own identity that is special, and unique, and interacts with the universe in a way that no one else's does. Maybe that soul belongs to something greater that none of us can even imagine.

Maybe I don't even really know what I'm talking about.....

--------------------
Images of broken light which
dance before me like a million eyes
That call me on and on across the universe
Thoughts meander like a
restless wind inside a letter box
they tumble blindly as
they make their way across the universe

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Chronic777
Empty Awareness

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,189
Loc: Behind Your Eyeballs
Last seen: 27 minutes, 22 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8563418 - 06/25/08 04:51 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Nice post, you should check out mooji when hes in america, he is one of the greatest teachers, hes within the heart of advaita, a direct disciple of Papaji in the Ramana lineage, since going to his satsangs i have awoken & been left as the unchanging awareness.

Identity still flashes back but for the most part identity with this body is all but gone. The only thing i can identify with is awareness and thats not a solid identity as its not even a "thing"! I honestly dont know what "I Am", the universe is not even me, but it is my play :heart:

Also read some Ramana Maharshi, seriously :grin:

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"Only if one knows the truth of love, which is the real nature of Self, will the strong entangled knot of life be untied. Only if one attains the height of love will liberation be attained. Such is the heart of reality. The experience of Self is only love, which is seeing only love, hearing only love, feeling only love, tasting only love & smelling only love, which is bliss"
:heart:

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Penguarky Tunguin
Hugh Jassle

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 10,245
Loc: Your Mom's Taint

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Chronic777]
#8564087 - 06/25/08 07:46 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Thanks man, now all I see is this:

--------------------
Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

For further information, consult your pineal gland.

Did you know America ranks the lowest in education but the highest in drug use? It's nice to be number one, but we can fix that. All we need to do is start the war on education.

These days, if a dog’s not getting fisted I can’t even get a boner.

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The Cypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 4,246

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8564871 - 06/25/08 11:19 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

But why stop there? Why not take it to the next logical extension and say that awareness itself is an illusion?

--------------------
the truth will set you free

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Wiccan_Seeker
INFJcounselor-idealist

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 16,831
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: The Cypher]
#8565704 - 06/26/08 07:38 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Why not take it to the next logical extension and say that awareness itself is an illusion?

What are you on a deeper level, than pure Consiousness itself?

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Chronic777
Empty Awareness

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,189
Loc: Behind Your Eyeballs
Last seen: 27 minutes, 22 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: The Cypher]
#8570593 - 06/27/08 10:41 AM (3 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
But why stop there? Why not take it to the next logical extension and say that awareness itself is an illusion?

If awareness is also seen as an illusion, what sees this?
Isit not awareness?
Im not trying to be funny or imitate my teacher, im serious!

Awareness is before all, even consciousness!

When i fall asleep, & start losing consciousness, when i go into a trance like state in meditation & consciousness starts slipping away, awareness is always there & cant be gotten rid of. Consciousness is the intuition "I Am" in deeeeep sleep this intuition is not there so even consciousness comes & goes.

Every thing comes & goes in awareness.

You could also say all comes & goes in consciousness, as another word for awareness but i feel awareness is before consciousness, the two words are very similar but consciousness to me refers to the flux & evolution of life & the universe, awareness is the source, unchanging.

:rose:

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AlteredAgain
Open

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,691
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Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Chronic777]
#8574865 - 06/28/08 04:35 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

may be.

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The Cypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 4,246

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8574884 - 06/28/08 04:42 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

Why not take it to the next logical extension and say that awareness itself is an illusion?

What are you on a deeper level, than pure Consiousness itself?

Mere atoms and molecules. Consciousness is itself only a byproduct of billions of individual neurons firing at each other--there is no "singular" thing called awareness. Even our so-called free will is merely a rationalization of an already-determined choice formed by a sophisticated decision-making subroutine encoded in our cerebral cortex.

Not that I'd be against my consciousness/awareness continuing on after death, as you seem to be implying through your argument, but this grinchy cold-hearted materialist will still remain skeptical.

--------------------
the truth will set you free

Edited by The Cypher (06/28/08 05:33 PM)

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c0sm0nautt
Seeking thetruth...

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 367
Loc: Long Island/New Paltz
Last seen: 32 minutes, 26 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: The Cypher]
#8576654 - 06/29/08 07:37 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Awesome =D I'd take all this to the next level with the parallel universe theory.

Either that or we are in a game world like that talked about in the Bob the Alien thread...

Either way we create our own realities and should "play" life hehe

--------------------
- Cosmonaut

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undergrounder

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,266
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 7 hours, 23 minutes

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#8580264 - 06/30/08 11:09 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

If all we are is awarenss, why do 'we' wake up again in the morning after we fall asleep and lose our awareness? Why does our awareness disappear and reappear if not for our brain keeping it alive?

Awareness is brain-based, without a brain, awareness cannot exist. Similarly, if the brain doesn't exist, but awareness does, how can something that doesn't exist interact with something that does? The brain, then, is just as real as awareness.. Our brain cannot exist without a heart pumping blood up to it to keep it alive. Our heart is also as real as our brains as real as our awareness. By extension, our whole bodies are as real as our awareness, and so are everyone else's bodies.

Everything could be said to be real.

In fact awareness is the only thing that is not real, awareness is the illusion, 'self' is the illusion, consciousness is the illusion. It disappears when we die.

We are an illusion.

--------------------
:igor:

RIP

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom:

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BrainChemistry
Duplicarius

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 1,115
Loc: Mountains of N. America
Last seen: 1 minute, 29 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: undergrounder]
#8580329 - 06/30/08 01:36 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

How can you be sure that awareness does not still exist after the brain is dead and gone? Science has yet to prove what happens after death.

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satyr
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 1,210
Last seen: 20 minutes, 3 seconds

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8582056 - 06/30/08 10:02 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Great post. I've learned this to be true after my ayahuasca sessions. It was shown to me that everything in this world are simply illusions, and that everything we see and experience only exist because we believe they do. This is why people can be hypnotized to see things that arent there, and to not see things that are there. This would also explain every paranormal event to ever occur throughout history. I dont believe in objective reality. I believe that every individual perspective is a world in of itself, and ones beliefs and expectations about that world change and modify it to suit there personal needs. It seems that the creators of the matrix understood more than they let on.

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undergrounder

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,266
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 7 hours, 23 minutes

Re: I'm going to rob you of your senses and show you you know nothing [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8582871 - 07/01/08 02:16 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
How can you be sure that awareness does not still exist after the brain is dead and gone? Science has yet to prove what happens after death.

I can be more sure than the opposite.

If awareness is not physically based, tell me how an anesthetist can inject chemicals into your bloodstream and make you unaware during surgery? If awareness continues despite the brain, why don't you continue to stay aware? Brain injuries, lesions, pharmacology, sleep experiments ... all show awareness is dependent on the physical brain.

And if awareness is physically brain-based, then without the brain there is no awareness.

--------------------
:igor:

RIP

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom:

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