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 YawningAnus
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Registered: 01/15/05
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 experimental.... it bothers me...
#8548212 - 06/21/08 05:55 PM (2 months, 14 days ago) |
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the phrase "experimental music" was pretty much coined by John Cage and has a pretty solid definition which isnt followed by any band I have ever heard label themselves "experimental".
wiki has this to say about it.....
Quote:
In a broader sense, it is also used to mean any music that challenges the commonly accepted notions of what music is. David Cope describes experimental music as that, "which represents a refusal to accept the status quo"
even in that sense, these "experimental" bands dont cut it.
Sure, they think that they are challenging the commonly accepted notions of what music is... but they basically fall into one of two categories: noise rock (see sonic youth) and jam band (see tea leaf green).
I pretty much dont care for John Cage, but I despise his douchey fans with a passion... and it was this distinction that wiki gave which made me laugh in agreement.
Quote:
"...very generally, avant-garde music can be viewed as occupying an extreme position within the tradition, while experimental music lies outside it" (Nicholls 1998, 318). That tradition is the inheritance of common-practice Western art music, with its concern for increased technical complexity, historical inheritance, composer intention and other features.
which just goes to reinforce my position that John Cage is highly overrated. "we wont call it avant-garde, but rather experimental... that way people wont be pissed when they realize we have zero instrumental proficiency and compositional finesse".
You know, i see a very fine line, enough to define experimental as a genre unto itself... between it and avant-garde. But I dont find these self proclaimed experimental bands crossing that line in any way.
One thing I will give props to jahn cage for is giving me a chuckle for attempting to distort the way people perceived his music, rather than make odd music and hope that it was weird enough to be considered "original, experimental, edgy ____".
I think that basically these confused bands label themselves experimental because they think it refers to the traditional definition of the word "experiment":
an operation or procedure carried out under controlled conditions in order to discover an unknown effect or law, to test or establish a hypothesis, or to illustrate a known law.
but the major downfall of this "experiment" is that unlike scientists, they arent basing their unknowns or hopeful discoveries on the platform of all knowlefge thusfar... but rather acting out of presumption stemmed from their ignorance of music history and diversity.
in conclusion: avant-garde>experimental
do yourself a favor and stay away from "experimental" music. your time would be much better spent researching world music rather than some myspace dorks garage bands attempt at "blowing yur mindz!".
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Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8550783 - 06/22/08 02:01 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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jeez.. it is so hard getting a rise out of you people.
we should just change the name of this forum to "reccomendations and opinions".
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Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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geedorah
CHOPPN SCIM
 
Registered: 11/30/06
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8550843 - 06/22/08 02:28 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Doesn't it take experimental music to alter what we consider avant-garde? Once an established experimental sound takes off other bands will follow. These groups cannot be labeled as pop or any other genre so they fall into avant-garde and the tradition changes? Experimental creates the hypothesis and avant-garde is the axiom.
Add some intelligence and it becomes prog?
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rlrrLrrl
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Azagthoth
Rise up Mummu
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 281
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: geedorah]
#8550909 - 06/22/08 02:55 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Example of real experimental music:
The same band can also write:
And if you still that noise your a fucking idiot.
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: geedorah]
#8550941 - 06/22/08 03:06 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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not IMO...
I see experimental as something that forces you to perceive music in a different way... like when john cage released a single song back in the day when shit was coming out on tapes and designed the tape to have an erase head after the play head so that you could only listen to the song once.
another example would be zaireeka by the flaming lips... even though it probably isnt considered experimental by anyone... but the album is 4 discs that must be played simutaneously and unless you have 4 of the exact same cd players, you will always have a different lsitening experience because of slight variances in disc player speeds it creates a wobbly effect to the music.
avant-garde is, like in the wiki quote, a theatrical and/or technical exploration into a fundamentalist/extreme aspect of tradition. very often the entire albums are abstractly conceptual where the whole is greater than the individual parts.
for example, mike patton has an album that is called some italian name and the majority of it is merely aural visualization to evoke a variety of emotions. one song I swear is basically him eating cheetos in a vinyl chair inside a cave.
so I find that the difference is someone putting on an art show (avant-garde) and someone giving you light diffusing goggles to walk around town in (experimental).
see, mike pattons album would have been experimental ambience if it wouldnt have been a linear, sequitir journey.... and john cages album would have been normal contemorary composition if it hadnt had an erase head after the play head.
--------------------
Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: Azagthoth]
#8550964 - 06/22/08 03:15 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Azagthoth said:
Example of real experimental music:
The same band can also write:
And if you still that noise your a fucking idiot.
my computer here at work doesnt stream video very well, but i did watch the first video and I have no idea how you would call that experimental.
even in the sense that it is challenging our present notions of what music is....
check out Magma if you want to see something that challenged the way we perceive music... they are a french band from the late 60's and early 70's that played this alien prog rock with two basses and created their own language to sing in which was in essence the depiction of a fictional society's history of escaping earth and colonizing other planets.
--------------------
Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8550978 - 06/22/08 03:19 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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--------------------
Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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Azagthoth
Rise up Mummu
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 281
Last seen: 8 days, 12 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8551015 - 06/22/08 03:30 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
not IMO...
I see experimental as something that forces you to perceive music in a different way... like when john cage released a single song back in the day when shit was coming out on tapes and designed the tape to have an erase head after the play head so that you could only listen to the song once.
another example would be zaireeka by the flaming lips... even though it probably isnt considered experimental by anyone... but the album is 4 discs that must be played simutaneously and unless you have 4 of the exact same cd players, you will always have a different lsitening experience because of slight variances in disc player speeds it creates a wobbly effect to the music.
avant-garde is, like in the wiki quote, a theatrical and/or technical exploration into a fundamentalist/extreme aspect of tradition. very often the entire albums are abstractly conceptual where the whole is greater than the individual parts.
for example, mike patton has an album that is called some italian name and the majority of it is merely aural visualization to evoke a variety of emotions. one song I swear is basically him eating cheetos in a vinyl chair inside a cave.
so I find that the difference is someone putting on an art show (avant-garde) and someone giving you light diffusing goggles to walk around town in (experimental).
see, mike pattons album would have been experimental ambience if it wouldnt have been a linear, sequitir journey.... and john cages album would have been normal contemorary composition if it hadnt had an erase head after the play head.
You're retarded, when that band (Morbid Angel) came out. There was NOTHING that sounded even close. Every Morbid Angel cd has a different vibe and flow, go listen to the song Invocation of the Continual one the ENTIRE SONG. Tell me if thats what you perceived death metal as?
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
Last seen: 7 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: Azagthoth]
#8551132 - 06/22/08 04:04 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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you are retarded if you think morbid angel really created death metal, or growling.
just because it picked up popularity in the late 80's within america, you cannot act like scandinavia wasnt cranking out similar stuff in the early 80's.
there is no aspect of their music that was truly original or shocking to the progression of music.
when you start splitting hairs over grindcore deathmetal thrasher symphonic black metal.... yeah, we are taking last weeks band and speeding it up, or slowing it down, and screaming in a different octave... we're experimental.
--------------------
Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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 Yrtlzmo
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 2,061
Loc: Stumptown
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8551169 - 06/22/08 04:16 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Just wanted to say I'm completely with you on John Cage, what a fool.
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- I never sleep, 'cos sleep is the cousin of death -
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Azagthoth
Rise up Mummu
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 281
Last seen: 8 days, 12 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8552633 - 06/22/08 11:42 PM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
you are retarded if you think morbid angel really created death metal, or growling.
just because it picked up popularity in the late 80's within america, you cannot act like scandinavia wasnt cranking out similar stuff in the early 80's.
there is no aspect of their music that was truly original or shocking to the progression of music.
when you start splitting hairs over grindcore deathmetal thrasher symphonic black metal.... yeah, we are taking last weeks band and speeding it up, or slowing it down, and screaming in a different octave... we're experimental.
I agree most metal bands are exactly as you described. I mean just watch the second video and you can compare how different the sounds and styles are.
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AScannerDarkly
On StrangerTides
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 444
Last seen: 18 days, 5 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: Azagthoth]
#8552754 - 06/23/08 12:33 AM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Morbid Angel is experimental? Trey's guitar work is certainly very "out there" but I wouldn't call the band itself experimental, especially considering the pre-Blessed Are The Sick stuff that sounds like plain (albiet badass) death metal. THIS is experimental
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[quote]Voido said:
[quote]drken said:
Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote]
no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]
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AScannerDarkly
On StrangerTides
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Posts: 444
Last seen: 18 days, 5 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: Azagthoth]
#8552773 - 06/23/08 12:41 AM (2 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Azagthoth said:
You're retarded, when that band (Morbid Angel) came out. There was NOTHING that sounded even close.
Groundbreaking and unique isnt synonymous with experimental
And besides, you have to admit that Altars of Madness and previous works sounded a little bit like this&feature=related
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[quote]Voido said:
[quote]drken said:
Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote]
no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]
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geedorah
CHOPPN SCIM
Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 256
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: AScannerDarkly]
#8553668 - 06/23/08 09:12 AM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
AScannerDarkly said:
THIS is experimental
Would it be considered experimental? It seems to have a lot of structure. 
I can see how John Cage could be considered. Was it Fantomas who recorded an album that never once had a repeated phrase on any instrument? I'd consider that experimental.
These metal bands are pretty far from what is being defined in this thread. Just because you can't count a certain phrase the first time you hear it and the singer is growling doesn't make it experimental. Put them on a wurlitzer with Betty Carter on vocals and it's not that new.
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snoot
•ursa • major•
Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 3,497
Loc: city of funk
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: geedorah]
#8553949 - 06/23/08 11:10 AM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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yikes People take things to serious. Fuck.
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dont worry, only fools worry
~~~
".. and sometimes I'll just bring out those funny noises that feel good too me." - B.B. King
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
~ Dr. Seus
Production Gourmet
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snoot
•ursa • major•
Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 3,497
Loc: city of funk
Last seen: 2 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: snoot]
#8553977 - 06/23/08 11:20 AM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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If one is passionate about music, they can also play away from the norm and create other things that seem rhythmically inclined to them . Thus Experimenting. So wtf is the point of this thread.
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dont worry, only fools worry
~~~
".. and sometimes I'll just bring out those funny noises that feel good too me." - B.B. King
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
~ Dr. Seus
Production Gourmet
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YawningAnus
Got the GayDHD
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 10,114
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: snoot]
#8554299 - 06/23/08 12:46 PM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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my whole point is that experimenting does not make your music experimental.
so all these bands think that they can label themselves as experimental, when it isnt at all.
all this crap metal you guys are throwing out there has nothing to do with this thread and goes to just further my point regarding this issue.
--------------------
Image from: The Cremaster Cycle, by Matthew Barney
icelander: I remember this big yellow firey ball up in the sky. It was scary because it disappeared all the time and we had to dance naked and fuck all the women to bring it back.
YawningAnus: Those were the days
"if there's no such thing as evil, then what are evil spirits then? and don't turn this into a debate on the existence of evil spirits, let's just assume they exist for this argument. "
-Porcupine
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AScannerDarkly
On StrangerTides
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 444
Last seen: 18 days, 5 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: geedorah]
#8555456 - 06/23/08 06:15 PM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
geedorah said:
Quote:
AScannerDarkly said:
THIS is experimental
Would it be considered experimental? It seems to have a lot of structure.
I can see how John Cage could be considered. Was it Fantomas who recorded an album that never once had a repeated phrase on any instrument? I'd consider that experimental.
These metal bands are pretty far from what is being defined in this thread. Just because you can't count a certain phrase the first time you hear it and the singer is growling doesn't make it experimental. Put them on a wurlitzer with Betty Carter on vocals and it's not that new.
Just because something doesnt have structure doesnt mean it's experimental. The experimentation in the video I put up lies with the use of dissonance over harmony and melody. And nobody ever said metal is experimental, we've just been giving examples of experimental metal
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[quote]Voido said:
[quote]drken said:
Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote]
no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]
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Azagthoth
Rise up Mummu
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 281
Last seen: 8 days, 12 hours
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8555498 - 06/23/08 06:23 PM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
my whole point is that experimenting does not make your music experimental.
so all these bands think that they can label themselves as experimental, when it isnt at all.
all this crap metal you guys are throwing out there has nothing to do with this thread and goes to just further my point regarding this issue.
So quick to judge music because of it's GENRE. You sir are a fucking idiot and the reason experimental music is so underground.
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Cameron
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1,970
Loc: Canada
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Re: experimental.... it bothers me... [Re: YawningAnus]
#8556064 - 06/23/08 08:48 PM (2 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
experimental.... it bothers me...
A lot of things bother you, don't they? 
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