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 Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 6,523
Last seen: 9 hours, 14 minutes
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 Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
#8506562 - 06/10/08 08:39 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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the gun control link is pretty cut and dry, really.. gun control leading to a reduction in crime is so uncommon it would be listed as a "very rare" side effect -- occuring as often as with a sugar pill (placebo)
and i know someone's going to say it, so i'll cut it off now.
america is not violent because we have guns.
there are more americans killed with knives, bats, and good old fashioned fists and feet, than most other nations have murders by ANY means.
we're americans, we just like to kill each other.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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ray40cal
omnitrippint
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 702
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 1 day, 5 hours
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
#8506726 - 06/10/08 09:38 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Syle said:
i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?
Well, I don't see a misstep. It's just a thread where people can cast a vote and discuss their views on firearm legality, and how it affects society. It could have been about gas prices or global warming, but I wouldn't want to read it.
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Eat up
 
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 4,004
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 7 hours, 23 minutes
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Just wait until we have phasers... Set to 16 and vaporize each other.
Ah, the future.
In all seriousness, it's been said... Gun laws give guns to outlaws. The end. Logic pretty much follows from that point.
Honest, sane Americans should be able to defend themselves... from criminal, possibly insane Americans. 
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MEET BOB
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DieCommie
Ally
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 5,954
Loc: The Union
Last seen: 2 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
#8507518 - 06/10/08 02:07 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Syle said:
i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?
Absolutely true. Even if there is 100% correlation between guns and murders (which their isnt) ,that still doesn't show that guns are the cause of murders. (correlation is not causation)
Things like culture, immigration, economics, etc. confound the link betweens guns and murders.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.
Why don't you just get rid of the bill of rights altogether? If you want to live somewhere with gun prohibition, come to London or Manchester. Guns here are really illegal, possession alone lands you 15 years in jail. Doesn't seem to stop the growing numbers of gun use.
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. And fuck those people, those are the sort that use fear and violence to get what they want. If I had a gun, it'd be to defend myself.
I didn't say I wanted to live somewhere with gun prohibition, I said that if there was massive criminalization of guns, a'la war on drugs style, that there would probably be less violence. As yet, I don't think there's any evidence supporting this position.
I think I've made my position clear, and that you've simply presumed my contention that very harsh gun penalties will eventually reduce magnitudexprevalence of violence means that I'm for said penalties.
Read the thread buster, just cuz I've argued a result will follow and that you percieve the ends to be positive doesn't mean I support the means.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 6,523
Last seen: 9 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8508207 - 06/10/08 05:45 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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The evidence does not support your reasoning; not with gun control, and not with the war on drugs, either. The model does not work. It never has.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
Mushmonkey said:
The evidence does not support your reasoning; not with gun control, and not with the war on drugs, either. The model does not work. It never has.
ok?
So what's your point?
BTW, I allready said that, at least twice
Quote:
As yet, I don't think there's any evidence supporting this position.
Quote:
Well I looked for these studies I refrenced and I can't find em, so I must have just made them up/imagined them. I guess your right in doubting their existance. Everything I could find showed no change or paradoxical changes from gun access legislation, so I'm comfortable there's no evidence supporting my position.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 6,523
Last seen: 9 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8508541 - 06/10/08 07:29 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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So you're just going to continue believing in the tooth fairy, after your parents have told you it was a lie? Your position is untenable.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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your crude analogy isn't relevant
you've presented no evidence my position is untenable.
To my knowledge we've never had a country w/ reasonable freedom of gun possesion or reasonable availability of guns go to strict prohibition w/ draconian penalties for such. If we have, I'd be interested in seeing the analysis of the effect.
If you want to argue about the liklihood of my belief being accurate, present some evidence against it, and show the relevance.
I'm not interested in your poor analogies or your unsupported opinions, and though I'm not at all sure of the relevance of the discussion, I'd like to see the evidence you have rebutting my presumption and your take on how that bears on the issue.
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whatsgrimace
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 128
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8508931 - 06/10/08 08:48 PM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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This is one area in which I differ with the Democratic majority. I don't think that harsher gun laws will solve the problem of violent school shootings and the like. If licensed adult citizens wish to carry concealed weapons it should be their right to do so.
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