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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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 The ACLU, what are your thoughts?
#8470000 - 06/01/08 04:54 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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A divisive subject to be sure.
What do you think of them? I used to be a member and am not anymore just cuz I didn't wanna send in the 10 bucks and I'm generally broke. (disclaimer)
So what do you think?
I like them. I think they serve an important purpose and identify pretty well with most of my views- which I label libertarian, but who knows. They are for free speech, for both klansmen and hippies. Against oppresive ordinances limiting political signs and will defend both poor liberal families and rich republicans. Probably their most vocal area.
They are against campagin finance limits, which I think is an important test of objectivity, since the left generally is for these and the ACLU is widely regarded as liberal
They bring important equal protection claims, but I'm not as educated on these as of late.
Where I don't care for them is their interpretation of the second amendment. Now I used to not like the second amendment but pretty much came to realize there was no way to read it except how it is: it gives all folks the right to bear arms (as that term was generally understood upon ratification) which cannot be removed except by normal means, due process et cet. They feel its tied to the militia, which I think is both contrary to the intent and plain grammatical structure of the amendment. But as a positive, I don't think I've seen them fight on this end, someone correct me if I'm mistaken.
They also bring challenges to practices that while I agree violate the constitution, are marginal and bring disrepute upon them and garner a backlash. These are usually in the church state sphere.
So what do you think?
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 Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: johnm214]
#8470320 - 06/01/08 09:10 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I love and hate the ACLU. (Hate is too strong of a word; I don't really hate them.) I think they do a lot of good, standing up for the little guy. At the same time, I think they sometimes get distracted and stand up for any little guy, even when the little guy is clearly wrong, just because the guy is little. This is the part that I dislike about the ACLU. Not every little guy is innocent and not every orthagonal issue deserves equality.
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xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: Seuss]
#8470391 - 06/01/08 09:32 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I like the ACLU because by taking on a lot of really fringe cases I may not necessarily agree with they keep the government from setting precedents that might affect the rights of the general public.
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uber_aj
Ass hole / Good friend
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: xFrockx]
#8473203 - 06/02/08 12:06 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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i agree with the OP. I like the ACLU for the most part (not a member though), but I believe in my right to carry a gun. sometimes they push their liberal side a bit too much
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C.M. Mann
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: uber_aj]
#8483520 - 06/04/08 12:49 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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In my opinion one of the problems liberals have is sticking to a set of standards. You can see it right here with these posts. You like the aclu, Even when they violate your own rules! The biggest problem I have with the aclu is that it's mostly lawyers. The agenda of the aclu is to dismantle our legal system, by overburdening it with senseless lawsuits. There are two parts to this monster. The P.R. side where they make us think they are doing something good, and the international side where they are trying to turn us into the E.U. . The aclu is against the morality and standards that are the backbone of our Country. The aclu does not care about America or it's citizens. Their motivation is power and publicity. At one time they may have cared, but not now!
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: C.M. Mann]
#8483560 - 06/04/08 01:02 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
In my opinion one of the problems liberals have is sticking to a set of standards.
so what, we're all liberal if we like the aclu? Screw off w/ your prejudice mang- I don't like being wrapped up in a box by whatever "liberal" means. (I presume you were refering to me at least partially)
Quote:
You like the aclu, Even when they violate your own rules!
Um no, how have they violated my rules? They take a disfavored position on the second amendment but don't, to my knowledge, litigate in this area.
Quote:
The biggest problem I have with the aclu is that it's mostly lawyers. The agenda of the aclu is to dismantle our legal system, by overburdening it with senseless lawsuits. There are two parts to this monster. The P.R. side where they make us think they are doing something good, and the international side where they are trying to turn us into the E.U. . The aclu is against the morality and standards that are the backbone of our Country. The aclu does not care about America or it's citizens. Their motivation is power and publicity. At one time they may have cared, but not now!
You've got to be kidding me
WHat is the "morality and standards that are the backbone of our Country?" I'd like to think it is freedom, and the rule of law. What are you talking about?
And overburdening it with senseless suits? WTF? Evidence?
I agree I don't wish for them to always jump into the church-state sphere as I think minor slights should be handled politically, but its their right to do so, and I usually, think they're right on that issue.
"they don't care about america or its citizens" Who cares? What does this have to do with anything at all? They advance they're agenda, must they advance yours?
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C.M. Mann
Stranger
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: johnm214]
#8484000 - 06/04/08 03:29 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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I shouldn't have to remind you that lawyers can manipulate facts to suit their needs. The aclu has an extreme left-wing agenda, I would think that most of their support is from that neighborhood. Does everyone who thinks differently than you get told to "screw off". ............................ I support the Constitution and it's original intent. And this includes the 2nd amendment, so I don't support any group that is trying to get rid of it. And the aclu doesn't want Americans to have guns! I think the last line of your post says it all, " who cares ". If you want to change the law, you do not go to court! That is what the legislature is for. You said it yourself " A devisive subject to be sure ". Yes you were right!
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zorbman
Bush Recession2008
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 3,191
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: johnm214]
#8486109 - 06/04/08 11:43 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
What do you think of them?
Quite powerful.
Helps keep us from becoming a police state.
Occasionly goes overboard.
I prefer overboard to a police state.
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"You come to a point in your life when you really don't care what people think about you, you just care what you think about yourself". -Evel Knievel
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gumkeegan
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: zorbman]
#8488944 - 06/05/08 03:41 PM (3 months, 10 hours ago) |
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How can they claim to be a "Civil Liberties Union" when they completely ignore the biggest offense against civil liberties in this nation: the war on drugs! ? or am i missing something?
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zorbman
Bush Recession2008
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 3,191
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: gumkeegan]
#8489013 - 06/05/08 03:58 PM (3 months, 10 hours ago) |
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The ACLU supports the decriminalization of drugs including heroin, cocaine and marijuana.
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"You come to a point in your life when you really don't care what people think about you, you just care what you think about yourself". -Evel Knievel
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danknugz81
spiralingdownward
Registered: 02/22/08
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: zorbman]
#8489310 - 06/05/08 05:18 PM (3 months, 9 hours ago) |
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i dont really see how any american citizen could be against the ACLU. these are the people that stand up for your constitutional rights.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: C.M. Mann]
#8489751 - 06/05/08 07:23 PM (3 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
I shouldn't have to remind you that lawyers can manipulate facts to suit their needs. The aclu has an extreme left-wing agenda, I would think that most of their support is from that neighborhood. Does everyone who thinks differently than you get told to "screw off". ............................ I support the Constitution and it's original intent. And this includes the 2nd amendment, so I don't support any group that is trying to get rid of it. And the aclu doesn't want Americans to have guns! I think the last line of your post says it all, " who cares ". If you want to change the law, you do not go to court! That is what the legislature is for. You said it yourself " A devisive subject to be sure ". Yes you were right!
I perceived the original "liberal" comment at a prejudicial judgement directed towards me and others, if it wasn't, I appologise.
I think the ACLU is very principled, which would make them not a "left wing" organization in my eyes, though I agree that their support is largely a left wing oriented population.
You support the original intent of the constitution? If that means the original language and what that text meant, I'm with you. If you meant the overarching principles or whatever, I'm not. This "original intent" language is dangerous as it allows judges to craft law through divining the intent of statutes and the const. How can it mean anything but what it says? People are to be judged according to some tomes of history as divined by a judge, not what the thing says?
What specifically is the intent that the ACLU doesn't recognize that you criticize?
And as for changing the law, how do you enforce the constitution? I suppose you support the DC gun ban on constitutional grounds? You would allow people's buisnesses to be seized for minor violations of law? You would allow yourself to be imprisoned for your speech? Can only the prosecutors "go to court" and not be guilty of "changing the law"? So when a plaintiff that is not the government goes to court its wrong, to be condemned, but the government can do it somehow?
According to a study posted here recently, the ACLU is actually a conservative group, though middle of the road. This is one of the studies used to support the liberal media theory.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,010
Loc: Americas
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Re: The ACLU, what are your thoughts? [Re: johnm214]
#8496678 - 06/07/08 04:14 PM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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hola...
So what is the positiions the ACLU takes which are contrary to the constitution?
And do you really defend "original intent" in lieu of "original meaning"?
If so, I'd consider yourself a liberal, or a conservative w/out principle.
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