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 hitch hiker
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Registered: 05/08/08
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 Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: deimya]
#8409662 - 05/16/08 02:11 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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 CLASSIC
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Grapefruit
Stranger
Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: hitch hiker]
#8411995 - 05/17/08 05:21 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Everybody has a different view. Reality. Not one view or another, but all of them put together.
One persons bullshit is never anothers. Who's right? Nobody.
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412199 - 05/17/08 08:42 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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'One persons bullshit is never anothers.'
Kinda like dem WMDs, no??
'Who's right? Nobody.'
Who is convinced, who is doing the convincing?? Why??
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 deimya
Phase transiting
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 379
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412217 - 05/17/08 08:57 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Are you really willing to diss the whole rational edifice in one cheap sway ? Would you be right or wrong in saying that then ? This is one of the quickest and surest way to put that last nail in one's confin of eternal paradoxes and schizoprenia. If so you can be sure Bayes and Jaynes are turning in their grave.
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The future is a race between education and catastrophe.
-- H.G. Wells
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Grapefruit
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: deimya]
#8412277 - 05/17/08 09:32 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Who is convinced, who is doing the convincing?? Why??
As in, one persons idea of a lie is never the same as anothers. If both of them are convinced on different subjects you can argue the point to death but there are always going to be people on both sides of the argument thinking about how their arguments are both right. When in actuallity both arguments have their positives and their negatives. The key is to step out of self assurity and just look at every argument from every angle without judgement. Making judgements would seem to be a big mistake. So neither are really right when there's evidence for both.
That was my error in life up to now, making judgements on things, it's quite good fun to think about stuff and look at arguments. Argument is often just for argument's sake though. Just thinking of one thing to counter anothers point, you don't even realize you're doing it when you do it, but it happens. The key is being compltely non-judgemental.
I see it a lot when people are debating especially in politics (what a joke that is) and used to do it myself up to now. The debatee's will just highlight the weakest part of someones argument where they can find the most negatives and compltely focus on that without seeing positives. This causes all sorts of conculsions to be made within the mind. You see you're own argument in a great light.
So i guess my point is the key both in analysing anothers argument and in life, is complete neutrality.
Just coming directly to a conclusion of "there is no self" and just stopping right there thinking you've come to truth, while it might be nice and it might be a lazy mans way to cutting out the darker side to themself isn't neccasarily the right way to do things. Perhaps the best way is when you see yourself being egotistical or something is just to say, well tommorow ill try not make that mistake again.
That way you can decondition yourself slowly from the trappings of ego, and remain neutral to which side (Ego, Emptiness or Oneness) you stand and just take the bits you don't like in what you see and chuck them away one by one over many years.
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deimya
Phase transiting
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 379
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412299 - 05/17/08 09:43 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Great, so in the light of your last post, how would you approach or comment, in complete neutrality, your ideas in these other 40 posts of yours if they were someone else's ideas ?
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The future is a race between education and catastrophe.
-- H.G. Wells
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Grapefruit
Stranger
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 112
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: deimya]
#8412362 - 05/17/08 10:16 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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i'm not gonna bother right now because i don't feel like the right ideas are in me to tackle the situation, plus i want to give myself a bit of a break jumping from one revalation to another.
However i would present an argument for truth within ego and an argument against that and do the same with oneness and emptiness to see which one comes out with the best positive/negative ratio and put that idea forward as what fits me as the most likely possibility. Not assuming anything as correct though.
It's more about sitting on the fence taking everyones side to the story in than making judgements. Doubtless not many would listen to my arguments though.
It's like in sales, all sales people know that the best way to sell their product is to have total belief in what they're selling. They never tell you any negative points to it. Politicians/philosophers are often just another kind of salesperson (Politicians being by far the worst for this). Everyone's so keen to get their point across they just end up ramming it down your throat with counter-argument after counter-argument. That's unfortunately the best way to get someone to believe your point which is why i doubt any truly great politicians will ever be elected.
This is why i think i may have lost interest, for now at least in the very idea of debating.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412376 - 05/17/08 10:21 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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'So i guess my point is the key both in analysing anothers argument and in life, is complete neutrality.'
I agree, when listening. But ultimately you take into consideration what is being said, try to incorporate this new view, and adjust your own view as you see fit.
After all its your reality. Actually matching what is going on in the world to your subjective experience is a task, imo, if you were conditioned by erroneous tradition(ego). Ultimately, I feel you have to form a belief about what you think is real based on the work you've done to 'find out'.(revised ego)
I feel that this is the process of acquiring personal knowledge. Being able to act from this knowledge base but having the ability to quickly abandon it and move on or revise it on the fly is what I believe to be wisdom. With time the ego becomes an instrument to manifest those elements of reality that were discovered in its 'absence'. And in my experience, they consist of heaven and hell. I chose both. Not neither.
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Edited by backfromthedead (05/17/08 10:40 AM)
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backfromthedead
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8412391 - 05/17/08 10:26 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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'It's like in sales, all sales people know that the best way to sell their product is to have total belief in what they're selling.'
There are those rare times when the product sells itself. Props to the R&D department for diving head first into the project and creating something everyone is dying for.
Shit they'll make a killing.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 9,838
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8412406 - 05/17/08 10:33 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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we keep sweeping on the same path that was swept before
each time a bit differently,
and what blew in may be very interesting indeed.
I like to see how new ideas fit.
how the dust and candy wrappers seem to come from nowhere
right outside my door.
speaking of seasonal debris,
so many people have given up on their televisions
the streets are littered with old monster boxes with glass faces today.
I think they bought new ones.
now they can tune in better,
too bad the programming is bad, the disasters worse than ever,
and the official statements seem better constructed lies.
I'll keep my old broom a while longer.
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backfromthedead
Activated
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: redgreenvines]
#8412416 - 05/17/08 10:37 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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'I'll keep my old broom a while longer.'
I had to get down and dust for finger prints... I was convinced somebody was tampering with the evidence.
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Grapefruit
Stranger
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 112
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8412447 - 05/17/08 10:51 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
There are those rare times when the product sells itself.
QFT, quite rare though. Some of the greatest inventors in the world have been poor sales people. They died before their ideas got to market.
Quote:
I'll keep my old broom a while longer.
How about throwing the broom away? And just letting the wind do it's work? If the debris keeps arriving by wind eventually another wind will blow it away. Better just to give up on clearing when it's impossible to completely clear a never ending cycle of waste and debris? After all, the wind is ceaseless. Switch the TV off while your at it aswell.
Edited by Grapefruit (05/17/08 10:53 AM)
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JoseLibrado
return
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412693 - 05/17/08 12:42 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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the moment you believe this posts words, you believe a view of reality - it being that no one knows what reality is all about.
To make the assumption that no one knows anything about reality, you need to have a thought about reality which is already present, that you can extract this from. Its impossible to experience it any other way, utlimatly how can the man who knows nothing about soccer or sex, say others no nothing about it either?
"Hey bill"
"Yeah"
"I think reality is whatever you want it to be"
"Tom, sorry to break it to you, but you or anyone our here doesnt know anything about reality"
"Why...what....Ok fine, what do you know about it?"
"Nothing, tom, as much as you basically."
Haha.
Thats the problem; yes you may believe no one knows anything about reality, but how the hell is that possible when you yourself assume the same thing and thus have no starting point of which to say ; well this guy has no true idea about reality.
Edited by JoseLibrado (05/17/08 12:47 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: JoseLibrado]
#8412735 - 05/17/08 12:55 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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"Haha.
Thats the problem; yes you may believe no one knows anything about reality, but how the hell is that possible when you yourself assume the same thing and thus have no starting point of which to say ; well this guy has no true idea about reality."
That'll give you a psychic square knot.
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Oweyervishice
You're Vicious
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 390
Last seen: 19 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8412813 - 05/17/08 01:18 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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And I'm there, looking up at the sky
And I'm scared, thinkin' 'bout the way that I
Don't understand anything at all...
And how it overtakes me... and I am just so small...
Do I stand a chance?
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I found myself going away
Never wanting to go back again.
Leaving all my thoughts behind
Searching for some new ones inside.
I found myself.  
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,104
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Grapefruit]
#8412858 - 05/17/08 01:29 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
One persons bullshit is never anothers. Who's right? Nobody.
That is a misleading statement which causes more harm than good.
It also smells of bullshit... and I doubt I am the only one who smells it... no matter what you believe.
If you believe you will never die... if imortality is your percieved reality... and you stand in front of a speeding train... you will still get yourself squished.
If you believe you can fly... so you jump out of an airplane without a chute... you'll still go splat.
If you believe you can live without food... so you don't eat ALL Summer... you'll still starve.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 9,838
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Cervantes]
#8412894 - 05/17/08 01:37 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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yeah;
its like when you say something with too tight a grip on reality
it pinches -
reality squirms out of this grip
(- e.g. a statement like "everything is bullshit" is too fixed to be right -)
so
we have to phrase things with words that make looser grips on reality in order to hold the living "truth"
in a way that it is comfortable being held;
i.e. hold it loosely, as if it were the wind, or a snake.
sweeping up is never finished. so declaring it done, is a kind of lie.
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Oweyervishice
You're Vicious
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 390
Last seen: 19 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: redgreenvines]
#8412909 - 05/17/08 01:40 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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It is impossible to get a coherent look at how the universe works as a whole while being inside and a part of the system. It may be extremely simple looking from the outside in. 
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I found myself going away
Never wanting to go back again.
Leaving all my thoughts behind
Searching for some new ones inside.
I found myself.
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,104
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Oweyervishice]
#8413017 - 05/17/08 02:07 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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But if you live your life ignoring the laws of physics and the other sciences... your life will end early and painfully.
We don't have to understand EVERYTHING, to understand gravity or relativity.
Science, not wishful thinking, took us to space.
Do not underestimate the laws of nature. There is plenty left to learn... but the facts we now live by have extended our life expectancy and allowed us to adventure outside our own world.
Wishful thinking has done neither.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 9,838
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Re: Exeunt me, plus an apology and a final word. [Re: Cervantes]
#8413077 - 05/17/08 02:20 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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ok cervantes
when you say
"understand"
what exactly do you mean?
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