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 zouden
Neuroscientist
 
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,204
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 40 minutes, 41 seconds
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 Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: truekimbo2]
#8414861 - 05/17/08 10:48 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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But by that definition, 'sentience' means the same as 'living', which isn't very useful. I think we may as well define sentience as something higher than simply being alive. This would mean that not all living things are sentient, and so a distinction must be made.
Since evolution only provides functions for survival and reproduction, I think "behaviour that does not relate to survival or reproduction" is a good indicator of sentience. Leisure time, basically. Dolphins go surfing and elephants get drunk on fermenting fruit and humans create art and post on internet forums. These are things that we don't have to do to survive or reproduce, but we can do because we have the capacity.
Fungi don't do things for 'fun', they grow, absorb nutrients, act as parasites or symbionts with other organisms, and prepare fruiting bodies to release spores. This isn't sentience, it's life.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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 truekimbo2
total being glossolalia
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 4,844
Loc: ny
Last seen: 21 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8414884 - 05/17/08 11:00 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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are you familiar with the scientific community moving away from anthropomorphism?
it is pretty much impossible for us to say that a mushroom doesn't have fun or do leisure activity, because in doing so we'd have to use human concepts.
and kind of generally thats what we're talking about, you can't label intelligence or consciousness with human concepts, because those things MIGHT not apply to reality.
what we're suggesting here is that there are forms of intelligence on earth, that are so alien that we cannot recognize based on how their behavior or biology relates to our own.
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I'm trapped with a mad man. look at him, staring into me, filling my mind with paranoid thoughts
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 tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: truekimbo2]
#8415079 - 05/17/08 11:56 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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I completely agree with that. As I said, just because you can't relate to a fungus, does not make it any less sentient than ourselves.
How do you know that when a fungus is transporting nutrients from a healthy tree to a less healthy tree, it isn't just doing it for "leisure". How, exactly, would you you define what a leisure activity is for another organism? The only reason you are able to recognise leisure in dolphins and elephants is because they are mammals, and as such, closely related to ourselves.
Quote:
zouden said:
Since evolution only provides functions for survival and reproduction, I think "behaviour that does not relate to survival or reproduction" is a good indicator of sentience. Leisure time, basically.
Evolution has provided not only functions for survival and reproduction, but also for sentience. As this is the case, it is also just a part of life. No different to growing and reproducing. It just means we have spare time.
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,137
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: tripsis]
#8415120 - 05/18/08 12:10 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
tripsis said:Evolution has provided not only functions for survival and reproduction, but also for sentience.
By definition, evolution ONLY provides functions for survival and reproduction (and even then, that's an odd way of putting it, as it implies a purpose or intent behind the blind processes of natural selection.) Any other properties that an organism might possess (i.e., sentience) either occur because they indirectly aid survival or reproduction, or because they're non-harmful mutations.
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the truth will set you free...
...and everything I say is true.
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tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: deCypher]
#8415128 - 05/18/08 12:13 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Thus they stem from evolution, and have a genetic basis.
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,137
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: tripsis]
#8415153 - 05/18/08 12:19 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
tripsis said:
Thus they stem from evolution, and have a genetic basis.
Every property we have has a genetic basis. My point is that evolution does not provide functions for sentience, as this would imply that the intended goal of natural selection is to evolve sentient beings. Instead, natural selection only benefits the organisms who survive long enough to make more offspring. Sentience factors in nary a bit at the evolutionary scale.
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the truth will set you free...
...and everything I say is true.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,204
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 40 minutes, 41 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: deCypher]
#8415198 - 05/18/08 12:32 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Indeed. Sentience is a useful characteristic for higher organisms, because it helps capture prey (or evade predators). The reason why humans are so smart is because our ancestors needed it to survive the savannahs of Africa, where predators like the big cats could slaughter the apes (which were better suited to the trees) unless the apes could outsmart the cats. This led to a selective pressure for bigger brains, much more than that experienced by any other organism in history. It's basically our only advantage.
Things like creating art are simply things we can do because we have the brain capacity; it's a side effect.
Fungi do not have neurons or synapses, so they cannot transmit information across their mycelial networks faster than chemicals can circulate (thousands of times slower than nerves). They can not form long term potentiation so they cannot store memories and they cannot pass memories on to their progeny. They have no social structure beyond the ecosystem. They can not do anything except try and survive long enough to produce spores. When they transfer nutrients from a healthy tree to a dying tree, it's symbiosis, not sentience.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8415232 - 05/18/08 12:51 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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This may be true, but you still cannot rule out the possibility of sentience in other organisms. You just can't prove it either way. When fungi tranfer nutrients from a healthy tree to a dying tree has no firm explanation as yet, and can't just be attributed to symbiosis, nor to sentience. We are unable to say what another organism experiences with any certainty.
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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Zinglons Acolyte
Wizard Ninja
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 2,870
Loc: Andromeda Galaxy
Last seen: 44 minutes, 57 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: tripsis]
#8415243 - 05/18/08 12:55 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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you make a basic assumption that there is only chemical information, when there is also energy....
yayz for incoherence
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And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
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"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!" -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move." -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8415317 - 05/18/08 01:32 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Mushrooms are no more sentient than plants. They can not react to anything other than very limited external stimuli, such as nutrient levels, light levels, fresh air and water. Stimulus-response does not make something sentient. It makes you an automaton, a biological robot, simply following genetic instincts.
again, please SHOW ME, prove to me that a plant, a rock, a neutrino, is not thinking, not cogitating about its life and those around it.
different lifeforms react to different stimuli, it is not a sign of superiority. leatherback turtles navigate the ocean using magnetic mapping, something humans cannot even dream of doing. some insects are deaf and blind but can see the world trough their sense of smell, so accurately as to be lethal hunters.
the world is not limited to the human way of perceiving it. there are worlds inside worlds, ways of experiencing life that are fundamentally different yet equal to one another.
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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: deCypher]
#8415328 - 05/18/08 01:40 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
John Smith said:you can neither prove that there is consciousness in a rock, nor that there isnt any
Perhaps because consciousness is not a property, but rather a level? Animals are the best example of this--it would be absurd to deny that they aren't conscious, but it's clearly of a lesser self-awareness than humans. Everything in the universe therefore "has" consciousness... it's just a matter of how much and what kind.
i dont agree with a hierarchical way of classifying consciousness bcz its illegitimate to base all consciousness in relation to ours. and furthermore we know fuckall about the extent of the power of neither our consciousness nor other forms of it.
all being is one consciousness, experienced subjectively
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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
Edited by John Smith (05/18/08 01:47 AM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,204
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 40 minutes, 41 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: tripsis]
#8415329 - 05/18/08 01:41 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
tripsis said:
This may be true, but you still cannot rule out the possibility of sentience in other organisms. You just can't prove it either way. When fungi tranfer nutrients from a healthy tree to a dying tree has no firm explanation as yet, and can't just be attributed to symbiosis, nor to sentience. We are unable to say what another organism experiences with any certainty.
I guess it all depends on the definition of sentience, which seems to be a pretty nebulous concept really. I obviously prefer to use a definition which enables me to make a distinction, while you choose to use a broader definition. We're both right in our own way.
Quote:
Zinglons Acolyte said:
you make a basic assumption that there is only chemical information, when there is also energy....
As I said, fungi lack nerves, so they can't transmit information with energy. They can only use chemicals, which are much slower.
Quote:
John Smith said:
again, please SHOW ME, prove to me that a plant, a rock, a neutrino, is not thinking, not cogitating about its life and those around it.
What's your definition of thinking? Have you got one? I do, it involves change, and rocks don't change. They're rocks. They also don't use energy, something that is required for information processing. I'd like to see your proof that rocks can think without requiring energy.
Quote:
different lifeforms react to different stimuli, it is not a sign of superiority. leatherback turtles navigate the ocean using magnetic mapping, something humans cannot even dream of doing.
Ever heard of a compass? We built one and now we're living the dream.
Edited by zouden (05/18/08 01:51 AM)
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tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: John Smith]
#8415335 - 05/18/08 01:45 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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That's right, everything experiences life subjectively, and just because we cannot fathom what it means to be that organism, does not mean it is not sentient. It is completely anthropocentric to base everything off our perspective of the world.
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: tripsis]
#8415347 - 05/18/08 01:52 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Yes, when it comes down to it, it really does matter what you interpret sentience to mean. I just don't think that we can accurately interpret what it means to be another organism and how it see it's world, and to do so means putting our human perspective on it. It is not something we can measure, but it's isn't something you can discredit either.
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8415384 - 05/18/08 02:24 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
tripsis said:
This may be true, but you still cannot rule out the possibility of sentience in other organisms. You just can't prove it either way. When fungi tranfer nutrients from a healthy tree to a dying tree has no firm explanation as yet, and can't just be attributed to symbiosis, nor to sentience. We are unable to say what another organism experiences with any certainty.
I guess it all depends on the definition of sentience, which seems to be a pretty nebulous concept really. I obviously prefer to use a definition which enables me to make a distinction, while you choose to use a broader definition. We're both right in our own way.
Quote:
Zinglons Acolyte said:
you make a basic assumption that there is only chemical information, when there is also energy....
As I said, fungi lack nerves, so they can't transmit information with energy. They can only use chemicals, which are much slower.
Quote:
John Smith said:
again, please SHOW ME, prove to me that a plant, a rock, a neutrino, is not thinking, not cogitating about its life and those around it.
What's your definition of thinking? Have you got one? I do, it involves change, and rocks don't change. They're rocks. They also don't use energy, something that is required for information processing. I'd like to see your proof that rocks can think without requiring energy.
Quote:
different lifeforms react to different stimuli, it is not a sign of superiority. leatherback turtles navigate the ocean using magnetic mapping, something humans cannot even dream of doing.
Ever heard of a compass? We built one and now we're living the dream.
did you even bother reading my previous posts. we cannot neither prove nor disprove that something is conscious.
once more, human consciousness is not the role model, we are not the chosen children of god people, face it.
oh yeah sure, a compass. ok dude, I'll drop you to the bottom of the ocean and you use your compass to find that little island you were born 10yrs ago so you can lay your eggs, which island is btw now approximately 2000miles or more in open ocean, using a compass.
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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,204
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 40 minutes, 41 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: John Smith]
#8415415 - 05/18/08 02:47 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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You said thinking, but now you say consciousness. Which is it? This thread is suffering from a lack of term definitions.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8415437 - 05/18/08 03:04 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Main Entry:
con·scious·ness
Pronunciation:
\-nəs\
Function:
noun
: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought.
if we are going to argue on semantics, unless you have another idea, I say we use the dictionary as common ground.
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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 3,204
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 40 minutes, 41 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: John Smith]
#8415448 - 05/18/08 03:14 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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There is no indication that fungi have volition.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers
Marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
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truekimbo2
total being glossolalia
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 4,844
Loc: ny
Last seen: 21 seconds
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: zouden]
#8415496 - 05/18/08 04:35 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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i think we should end the thread now, the debate has been pretty intelligent, and both sides have conceded points.
in other words we've behaved more or less civilized, found common ground, and hopefully been given alternative points of view to ponder.
that basically never happens on here  , i think if we quit now we're all winners and gentleman.
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I'm trapped with a mad man. look at him, staring into me, filling my mind with paranoid thoughts
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tripsis
biophile-misanthropist-doofer
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 4,123
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Are shrooms sentient?! [Re: truekimbo2]
#8415504 - 05/18/08 04:45 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Kill the enemy!!! Err...I mean yes, gentlemen (and ladies hopefully) and winners...
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Since we depend on an abundance of functioning ecosystems to cleanse our water, enrich our soil and manufacture the very air we breathe, biodiversity is clearly not an inheritance to be discarded carelessly - Edward O. Wilson 1992
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