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abesh
Warrior SixDelta




Registered: 07/31/07
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Bob Barr & Ron Paul
#8401948 - 05/14/08 06:03 PM (6 months, 5 days ago) |
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My dream ticket.
-------------------- If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions?
- Scott Adams
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danknugz81
spiralingdownward



Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 773
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: abesh]
#8402161 - 05/14/08 07:10 PM (6 months, 5 days ago) |
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i support ron paul (just finished reading his new book) but im not too sure about bob barr
from wiki
Quote:
War on drugs
Barr was a strong supporter of the War on Drugs, reflecting his previous experience as Anti-Drug Coordinator for the Department of Justice.[18] While in Congress, he was a member of the Speaker's Task Force for a Drug-Free America.[17][18] This task force was established in 1998 by then-Speaker Newt Gingrich to "design a World War II-style victory plan to save America's children from illegal drugs."[19] The task force crafted legislation specifically designed to "win the War on Drugs by 2002".[19] “ There is no legitimate use whatsoever for marijuana. This is not medicine. This is bogus witchcraft. It has no place in medicine, no place in pain relief... ”
—Bob Barr, May 13 2002[20]
Barr advocated complete federal prohibition of medical marijuana. In 1998, He successfully blocked implementation of Initiative 59 -- the "Legalization of Marijuana for Medical Treatment Initiative of 1998" -- which would have legalized medical marijuana in the District of Columbia.[21] The "Barr Amendment" to the 1999 Omnibus spending bill not only blocked implementation of Initiative 59 but prohibited the vote tally from even being released.[21][22] Nearly a year passed before a lawsuit filed by the ACLU eventually revealed the initiative had received 69% of the vote.[23] In response to the judge's ruling, Barr simply attached an amendment to the 2000 Omnibus spending bill that overturned Intiative 59 outright.[24] Since leaving Congress, Barr's position on medical marijuana has changed dramatically and he now lobbies for state choice on the issue.[25][26]
In contrast to his otherwise fierce drug warrior image, Barr opposed prohibiting the dissemination of information about the manufacture of illegal drugs in the Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act, citing free speech reasons.[27]
[edit] Same-sex marriage
Barr took a lead in legislative debate concerning same-sex marriage. He authored and sponsored the Defense of Marriage Act, a law enacted in 1996 which states that only marriages that are between a man and a woman can be federally recognized, and individual states may choose not to recognize a same-sex marriage performed in another state.[28] However, he does not support the Federal Marriage Amendment, citing states' rights reasons.[29]
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Techno_Raver
Super Mario Bro




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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: danknugz81]
#8468861 - 05/31/08 09:43 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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If Barr is so anti-drug, then why is he running as a Libertarian? I would vote for him, just cause he's a Livertarian, but I'm having second thaughts.
-------------------- Disclaimer: I cannot be held responsible for anything I say or do. If any of it is illegal, it is to be considered "Total Bullshit!"
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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I was going to make a post about this.
Barr isn't anti drugs from the federal government standpoint. He used to be a major drug prohibitionist. No longer. He advocates that states should have the decision to make and the fed should step out of it- similar to Paul. It may be benificial for P.R. purposes having a voice against federal drug war actiosn come from a former proponent.
"Regarding the drug war, I've been there, done that, and know firsthand our current strategy is not working. Continuing to have the federal government run roughshod over the states, even if the citizens of a state decide they wish to legalize medicinal marijuana, for example, is wrong." http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080523/NATION/39459226/1001
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: johnm214]
#8468928 - 05/31/08 10:00 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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A decent synopsis of Barr. I'd probably vote for him, and probably will.
Title of article is Barr vs. Barr (chances are 1:1 it will end in a draw )
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/column?oid=oid%3A463093
Quote:
Once upon a time there was a Republican congressman named Bob Barr. He represented Georgia and had more than a few repressive and/or intrusive views on things. Take, for example, his stance on medical marijuana: After D.C. voters – constantly under the thumb of Capitol Hill on everything (that's what taxation without representation will get you) – approved a measure legalizing medi-pot for seriously ill District patients, Barr stepped up to the plate to completely thwart voter will via the so-called Barr Amendment, which sought to strip the city of all funding if officials attempted to "enact or carry out" any local initiative to legalize or reduce penalties associated with use or possession of pot (or any other drug). In essence, Barr was the Man responsible for suppressing the will of 70% of District voters – not exactly a great title to hold (not that it seemed to bother Barr, mind you).
Flash forward to March 2007: My, how times have changed. According to the Marijuana Policy Project (which, it should be noted, has railed against the Barr Amendment on more than one occasion), the nonprofit group has just hired – drumroll, please – former Rep. Bob Barr to be an MPP lobbyist. Whoa: I know, it's pretty stunning, but it would seem that Barr – who dumped the GOP last year to join the Libertarians – has had a come-to-Jesus moment, and in part, the MPP says, Barr will be lobbying to gain for D.C. residents the right to enact a medi-pot law. In other words, Barr will be lobbying against the 1998 Barr Amendment – or, as MPP's government relations guru Aaron Houston says, the amendment now referred to as "the D.C. medical marijuana amendment." Whatever you want to call it, Barr will now be lobbying against it: "I, over the years, have taken a very strong stand on drug issues," Barr told the D.C. rag The Politico last week, "but in light of the tremendous growth of government power since 9/11, it has forced me and other conservatives to go back and take a renewed look at how big and powerful we want the government to be in people's lives." Amen, brother Barr, amen.
Anyway, Houston and the rest of the MPP are pretty stoked about adding Barr to their ranks, in part because he does have a reputation on Capitol Hill. Adding him is a "boon to the cause," says Houston. "It's a boon to the movement." Indeed, Houston says the news that Barr would join MPP has received a lot of attention on the hill – "Everybody," Houston says, "is talking about it." And that's usually a good thing when you're trying to get shit accomplished.
In addition to lobbying against the Barr Amend … errr … the D.C. medi-pot amendment – and for medi-pot laws in general – Barr will also take on the governmental beast known as the Youth Anti-Drug Media Campaign, the granddaddy of all drug-war boondoggles (not counting the drug war itself, that is).
To refresh, the anti-drug ad campaign from the White House Office of the National Drug Control Policy – the beast responsible for all those trite don't-do-drugs commercials – is a multimillion-dollar loser. Problem is, you see, that the ads don't work – never have, never will. In fact, several of the ads have actually had a reverse effect, which is to say – oh irony, you cruel, sweet mistress – that they've been isolated in research as commercials that have actually prompted teens to try drugs, specifically pot. In fact, it appears the ONDCP actually knew the ads weren't working but sat on a report that pointed that out. Nonetheless, the ONDCP – home to the nation's drug czar, John Walters – continues forward with its automatonlike assurances that drugs are bad and that anti-drug commercials are good, even as congressional skepticism about the program continues to grow. Let's put it this way: You know your program has issues when normally staunch drug-war allies – like Rep. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, who last year called for Walters' ouster – begin questioning the efficacy of your strategies. (Of course that reality didn't stop President George W. Bush from calling for a 31% increase next year for the ad-campaign budget, which would give it $130 million to piss away.) Cue Barr, who Houston and MPP hope will now play a pivotal role in the increasingly popular quest to quash the anti-drug ad program: It is so "clear cut" that it's a failure, Houston says, but the fact that it continues on "demonstrates how incredibly difficult it is to kill a program in Washington."
I never would've imagined saying this (and it feels weird even thinking it): Here's hoping that this union of Barr and MPP is the start of a long and beautiful friendship.
Now I have to go shower.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: johnm214]
#8470030 - 06/01/08 05:25 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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By saying that he would leave it to the States to decide because the policy doesn't work he is not making a libertarian argument at all. He should say that vices are not crimes since vices do not infringe on another person's rights. He should declare for this reason alone should all such legislation be abolished, due to the inherent injustice of such laws. Whether or not drug use increases or decreases is besides the point since this is a matter of justice, and justice is not based on mere utility.
He should also declare all persons convicted of vice based "crime" will be pardoned immediately on his first day of office. I doubt that he even understands this at all.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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The only legitimate point I see you making is the pardon thing, and I'm not so sure that matters given its about as powerful as a statemetn that the federal government shouldn't control intrastate drug "crimes" as they now do.
Whether or not he should declare that vices are not crimes is kinda moot. Since he can't make law about all he could do is pardon folks or refuse to enforce the law, which is kinda the same thing but seem particularly proscribed whereas pardons are specifically allowed.
So I don't really get your gripe. He wants feds out of the drug war and has said specifically w/ regard to medical marijuana that the policy is not only philosophically wrong, its bad policy.
Good enough for me. I just want someone that will speak out against he drug war on principled grounds, i.e. commerce clause and/or state's rights.
Perhaps he'll address the issue in more detail in the coming months given his background and the questions that will be raised. I must say its kinda curious how he got the nomination, but I know nothing of the libertarian party's administration and internal politics so that's not surprising.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: johnm214]
#8470067 - 06/01/08 05:55 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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My gripe is that it is being right for the wrong reasons.
My argument is not commerce clause and/or state's rights. Philosophical libertarians are not concerned with the mechanics of the current legal structure (constitutionalism), they are concerned with the fundamental issues of inherent rights and liberty. Since the concept of equal liberty (your liberty ends where mine begins) is not being discussed this whole anti-drug law position is not advancing libertarianism at all.
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag




Registered: 04/08/08
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not only is ron paul pro-life, he is also a racist. i don't care what his other policies are, i will not ever vote for a candidate who is not pro-choice. the war on drugs is terrible, but if it came down to a choice, i think that women who need abortions having to get them done in an alley with a clothes hanger and possibly getting a terrible infection or dying is the greater evil.
-------------------- praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: rev 766]
#8470653 - 06/01/08 11:19 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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From a philosophical libertarian perspective the whole abortion issue hangs on when does life begin. So if life begins at conception then abortion should not be permitted. Since taking a life violates the rights of the person being aborted.
If life begins at viability then the viability point is the cutoff. It is not an inherently libertarian issue like vice crimes.
The drug war is way more devastating to the people's liberty than the abortion rights issue and I feel is the greater evil.
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag




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either way, neither one of these candidates would actually end the drug war, plus ron paul is a racist.
obama has said he favors decriminalization, however.
-------------------- praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: rev 766]
#8470712 - 06/01/08 11:40 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Ron Paul *is* a racist, although his supporters will never believe that even if he did write it in his own Congressional newsletter.
Bob Barr is as well.
There is no end to my amusement at the people the hippies will throw their lot in with just because they are perceived as "anti-establishment".
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Quote:
From a philosophical libertarian perspective the whole abortion issue hangs on when does life begin.
Not necessarily. I have heard many libertarian scholars argue that the issue depends on when consciousness or independent viability begins.
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag




Registered: 04/08/08
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: Redstorm]
#8470776 - 06/01/08 12:01 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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yeah, what the hell, i got so many myspace bulletins about ron paul, and saw all this ron paul crap everywhere, and i was pretty curious. i figured there might be something to him. then i did my research, which apparently no one else did. i was pretty skeptical in the first place as to why anyone in their right mind was supporting a republican...
-------------------- praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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linx88
Seeker



Registered: 06/22/08
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: rev 766]
#8680187 - 07/25/08 12:13 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
hippies will throw their lot in with just because they are perceived as "anti-establishment".
i think your confusing hippies with misanthropes or just ignorance personified.
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Minstrel
Talkback is Barberpole

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,391
Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: ...
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: rev 766]
#8680247 - 07/25/08 12:33 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
rev 766 said: either way, neither one of these candidates would actually end the drug war, plus ron paul is a racist.
Quote:
Madtowntripper said:Ron Paul *is* a racist, although his supporters will never believe that even if he did write it in his own Congressional newsletter.
Since you are both so adamant about branding Paul as a racist, I'm curious as to whether either of you would consider McCain a racist. Please be so kind?
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Edited by Minstrel (07/25/08 12:35 PM)
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Evan




Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 4,176
Loc: over there
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Ron Paul *is* a racist, although his supporters will never believe that even if he did write it in his own Congressional newsletter.
Bob Barr is as well.
There is no end to my amusement at the people the hippies will throw their lot in with just because they are perceived as "anti-establishment".
Bob Barr is racist?
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GALACTIC CONNECTIONS MANIFEST
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: Minstrel]
#8683483 - 07/26/08 09:27 AM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said:
Quote:
rev 766 said: either way, neither one of these candidates would actually end the drug war, plus ron paul is a racist.
Quote:
Madtowntripper said:Ron Paul *is* a racist, although his supporters will never believe that even if he did write it in his own Congressional newsletter.
Since you are both so adamant about branding Paul as a racist, I'm curious as to whether either of you would consider McCain a racist. Please be so kind?
I think Mccain is on the record as saying that he has quite a few problems with the Asian race.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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and then seeing as how obama is a racist, I guess everyone sails on the same ship, thank god because we wouldnt want anyone to be different in this presidential election
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian


Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8684033 - 07/26/08 12:36 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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To think Ron Paul is a racist requires a truly incredible mind. One must have managed to form an opinion of him without having taken in ANY of what he espouses. Had one actually bothered to try and understand his philosophy, one would surely -- assuming one had the standard number of chromosomes -- have realized that individualism is very much not in accord with racism (and sexism, and ageism, etc.) which lumps individuals into groups.
The conclusion I must draw is that the earlier posters in this thread are ignorant or are sufferers of Down Syndrome. You choose.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Minstrel
Talkback is Barberpole

Registered: 03/15/05
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I think Mccain is on the record as saying that he has quite a few problems with the Asian race.
Then I am also curious as to who (Paul or McCain) we have a stronger case for calling a racist. As far as I know, the strongest evidence we have for either McCain or Paul being racists, are words from McCain's own mouth, and an article Paul didn't write, respectively.
Do you think there is stronger evidence available of either of them displaying racist behavior?
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Edited by Minstrel (07/26/08 12:41 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: Minstrel]
#8684060 - 07/26/08 12:45 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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What did black people ever do to Ron Paul?
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Minstrel
Talkback is Barberpole

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,391
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Re: Bob Barr & Ron Paul [Re: Ancalagon]
#8684106 - 07/26/08 12:57 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said: To think Ron Paul is a racist requires a truly incredible mind. One must have managed to form an opinion of him without having taken in ANY of what he espouses. Had one actually bothered to try and understand his philosophy, one would surely -- assuming one had the standard number of chromosomes -- have realized that individualism is very much not in accord with racism (and sexism, and ageism, etc.) which lumps individuals into groups.
The conclusion I must draw is that the earlier posters in this thread are ignorant or are sufferers of Down Syndrome. You choose.
Racism is a quality we have all (mostly) been taught to despise since we have been children. Prejudice AGAINST racism and racists then arises, and seems an admirable quality; it is something we desire to eradicate from our society. Most people want nothing to do with racists; no attention is to be paid to them, and they are to be ridiculed. It is still prejudice, mind you, however noble it may seem.
If you can convince someone that a politician (or anyone, for that matter is racist), then you engage this operating procedure in the mind (if racist, then bad), and an immediate distrust of that politician results. Such a witch-hunt mentality requires the same lack of understanding and ignorance which characterizes racists.
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Edited by Minstrel (07/26/08 01:26 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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