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 coda
Banjo Goiter
Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 8,628
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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 Re: is this a weak LSD experience? [Re: Kaleidoscope]
#5226456 - 01/26/06 02:15 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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LSD- From crystal to blotter
def a good read if you dont know shit about LSD synths.
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To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .
-JG
 
Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.
Edited by coda (01/26/06 02:15 PM)
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 sui
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 16,905
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co. 
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Re: is this a weak LSD experience? [Re: coda]
#5226462 - 01/26/06 02:16 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thats more about laying/distrobution, but stilll i think thats my favorite thread here at the shroomery 
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songcycle67
Gypsy Wizard
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 210
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: is this a weak LSD experience? [Re: sui]
#8401415 - 05/14/08 02:48 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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This is a completely hypothetical story:
Sorry, I realize I'm really new around here (having registered just to post in this thread), but I've had several experiences and they've all varied greatly. At first I thought I was getting either really low doses or lavender, etc.
There is a reason why LSD experiences vary so greatly without any help from additives. According to an interview that I read, and a lot of research that I've done on the subject, you can indeed get 100% real (not /pure/) LSD which varies by batch depending on the carefulness or carelessness of the chemist. A chemist who is serious about his shit (the people making white fluff and needle point) are going to make sure their product is CLEAN. this equates to thin layer chromatography being done until all impurities (i.e. alkaloids and other assorted non-LSD molecules) are erased. This can yield an LSD-25 to non-reactants ratio of over 99%-1% if done enough times. According to Owsley, not only does purity (of the LSD-25 chemical itself, not what is on the blotter or in the vial) significantly effect all aspects of the trip, but higher purities also tend to create a more positive vibe during the experience and generally a more "cliche" acid trip--more distinct visuals, more cosmic/magical, less body load. So chances are if you run across something that gives you a 5+ trip on one hit, it's probably not the dose, it's the purity of the chemical.
I'm not saying that there aren't batches of "LSD" out there with god knows what floating around in them: there most definitely are; but most people who've experimented with the various sorts floating around can tell when they've hit the Lady. Unfortunately at low purities, with no help from LSA additives (which wouldn't be worth putting on a blotter) or DOB or 2C-i or ayahuasca or GHB or Tylenol, 100% real LSD can still be only 20% pure, which is why there is so much debate about this subject.
In summation I would personally attribute most bad vibes, dark spots, heavy body loads and scary monsters experienced on fairly reliable LSD doses to impurity in the chemical itself, not in any additives.
Incidentally, Owsley claims that his batches of white lightning and all that followed were 97-99% clean, and I believe that. I also happen to know for a fact that there is 96+% pure floating around today.
Here follows the interview segment that spurred most of my research. I'd like to point out the fact that Owsley addresses the ease of making the stuff (unfortunately the same cannot be said for attaining the reagents) and the long kept secret that all your old guru hippie friends don't want you to know about: MOST EARLY LSD INGESTED BY COLLEGE STUDENTS AND PROFESSORS AND CIVILIANS IN GENERAL WAS NOT PREPARED IN SWIZERLAND BY ALBERT HOFFMANN WHILST RIDING A BICYCLE AND BOUNCING ON A TRAMPOLINE. MOST EARLY STREET ACID WAS BLACK TARRY UNFILTERED GOO MADE BY FORMER AMPHETAMINE PRODUCERS. ONLY A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF PROFESSIONAL PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTES IN AMERICA WERE GIVEN PERMISSION TO EXPERIMENT WITH PURE SANDOZ IN THE '60's, AND BESIDES, CZECH ACID WAS MUCH MUCH BETTER. And for those of you preparing a boast about how good Owsley's acid was back in '65, do remember that until about 1969 (the age of Orange Sunshine) it was nearly impossible to find the kind of acid Owsley was producing anywhere outside of lower California. That should shut some people up. Read a book. But, then again, maybe Owsley Fucking Stanley isn't a reliable enough source for you lot. Few seem to be.
Source:
B: So the earliest acid you got was mixed — some of it was good and some of it wasn’t good?
O: Most of it was terrible. It would make you high, but it was so full of impurities and other things that it was a totally rough trip.
B: Where do you think the impurities come from?
O: I’m not God. I can’t look into a brownish liquid and tell you what’s in there. There’re all kinds of derivatives of ergot containing various derivatives of lysergic acid that are active in some way in the body. St. Anthony’s fire, do you know about that? It was the result of ergotamine in the ergot growing on rye which was made into bread in the Middle Ages, made your fingers and toes drop off. They are very complex, many of the derivatives, and most of them are active — and when you are doing a synthesis you get all kinds of things that hook up to the lysergic acid molecule. Breakdown products, isomerization — who knows what’s in there?
I’ve had this conversation with Sasha many, many times. I’ve said: “Sasha, as you approach higher and higher purity, you get more and more magical.” He said, “Well, you’re ascribing a very high activity to very minute amounts of impurity.” I said, “I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but there’s something going on there.” Then later I got to thinking about this, and realized that perhaps the impurities are like a kind of catalyst. A catalyst can catalyze a reaction at extremely minute quantities, and often these catalysts are not affected by the reaction. Who knows that there isn’t some catalytic/synergistic effect that occurs? Where you have 100 mcg. of LSD and you have nanograms of some strange fellow-traveler impurity that actually catalyzes the effect of the LSD on the nervous system into something else. I’m not going to say that this is what’s happening, or that I necessarily believe this, but I do know that as you purify LSD you very quickly come to a point where it will not dissolve in the solvent from which you have crystallized it. It gets to a point where it’s insoluble in the methanol, and you have to heat this for such a long period of time in fresh methanol that some of it breaks down. And once it has broken down, only then will it dissolve. So there’s a lot of strange stuff going on with this “chemical” that doesn’t necessarily work according to the usual principles of chemistry. There’s no more chemistry to making LSD than there is to baking a bloody cake. You just have to know how to do it. What parts to use, what temperature to set the oven, etc. Most of it is published, and that which isn’t published is available to an investigative mind. The correct and accepted term for those who make the entheogens is “cook.” I like to think of it as a sort of Gourmet Chef, master of Fine Mental Cuisine.
Now, Sasha is a chemist. I’m not a chemist, I never pretended to be a chemist. I’m an artist. There’s no more chemistry to making LSD than there is to making a bloody cake. You just have to know how to do it. What bits to use, what temperature to set the “oven”, etc. Most of it is published, and that which isn’t published is available to an investigative mind. It helps to be smart, if you’re bright and you pick up on things and pay attention, you can pretty soon figure out what was left out of the published account. On the other hand, a chemist is a person who, wanting to make a compound, having an idea of the structure, evolves in his mind a synthetic process to produce it. To verify the structure of a known original compound is the usual reason for development of a synthesis for a naturally occurring or semi-naturally occurring compound. He is synthesizing this compound in order to prove its structure, or to provide a means of manufacturing it other than extracting it from a plant. A chemist is a highly skilled person. I don’t have any of those skills. What I did is like following a recipe.
B: But your acid had a reputation back in those days. Purple Haze, White Lightning, was always considered the most esteemed of all the acid that people could get back then.
O: I always tried to do it as well as my ability would allow.
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Check out my psychedelic acid rock: http://www.myspace.com/kingbeelovesyou
Disclaimer: All posts on this site concerning illegal substances are fictional accounts. I in no way endorse the use of or use any of these substances myself.
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Orbital_Saucer
Other
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 551
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: is this a weak LSD experience? [Re: Kaleidoscope]
#8401673 - 05/14/08 03:50 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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If a person has the apparatus/experience to produce LSD, I would highly doubt they wouldn't be able to separate some different substances. Crystal structures can be easily changed by recrystallization with different solvents/temperatures, etc.
There is so much bullshit here, and no fact.
But here's one: You can NOT go about guaging the chemical purity of LSD by your experience with ingesting it.
The absolute first thing that any reputable source of information on psychedelics will tell you is that experiences are going to very massively on person, set, and setting.
I have not made LSD, nor do I have a relevant degree, but I know a little, and I really doubt that all these potent LSD analogues are being coproduced in its synthesis that I haven't heard about until now.
It all seems far fetched, especially when the main advocate of this theory stubbornly refuses to back his ideas up, but instead tells us to do his research.
I can't submit a thesis and list no sources, and then at the back of the paper add a note saying "Reader- Do the research, it's all true!" 
Edited by Orbital_Saucer (05/14/08 03:52 PM)
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songcycle67
Gypsy Wizard
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 210
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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I'm really lost. Was that an attack on what I just said? If so I backed up my statements with the Owsley interview, but I can cite more if you need. I thought the word of the man who is likely one of the most knowledgable people alive in this subject may count.
I'm not out to impress all you bickering pseudo-scientists on the shroomery forum, I was just trying to throw something out there that I've had on my mind for a while. It was intended as a crash course in purity for people who don't understand how "perfectly real LSD" can feel like a bad Vicodin hangover, not a fucking peer-reviewed essay for Science weekly.
But we can go there if you need.
"If a person has the apparatus/experience to produce LSD, I would highly doubt they wouldn't be able to separate some different substances. Crystal structures can be easily changed by recrystallization with different solvents/temperatures, etc."
What you're talking about here has relatively little to do with what I'm talking about. You're referring to the whole process, and I'm just referring to the end process of purifying the chemical. This has relatively little to do with equipment and more to do with the cook. If a person wants his shit to be on fire, he's going to run it through chromatography five or six times and clean it up each time. You really need to do some research on how LSD is purified and the mechanics of thin layer chromotography before you go inciting a feud, or do I have to link you to erowid first? Sorry if I'm not in the mood to lay out the mechanics of the modern chromatography machine, I thought you had access to wikipedia.
I assume that the people who understand the process of manufacturing LSD understood this reply and know how thin layer chromotography works and those who don't probably don't care to read a short essay by yours truly on the subject in a shroomery thread.
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Check out my psychedelic acid rock: http://www.myspace.com/kingbeelovesyou
Disclaimer: All posts on this site concerning illegal substances are fictional accounts. I in no way endorse the use of or use any of these substances myself.
Edited by songcycle67 (05/14/08 04:15 PM)
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Orbital_Saucer
Other
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 551
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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No it wasn't.
And while I would probably disagree with you on a couple points, I wasn't really commenting on you, as you clearly are representing your ideas in a coherent and respectful manner.
Apparently my strategy of not picking names backfired. Apologies.
-Also, I suppose I know the basic principles of chromatography, but nothing past that.
Silly me:
With something as small and precious as LSD, simple recrystallization probably wouldn't be done. 
Edited by Orbital_Saucer (05/14/08 04:22 PM)
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songcycle67
Gypsy Wizard
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 210
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: is this a weak LSD experience? [Re: songcycle67]
#8401840 - 05/14/08 04:30 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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My apologies! I shouldn't have reacted so hastefully. And you're wrong, in the traditional recipes recrystallization is done; several times in fact. The numerous recipes and newfangled things like peptide coupling reagents make the synthesis itself almost impossible to discuss, simply because there are so many forms. Hopefully people will continue to use the standard tlc to purify or even purification will be hard to discuss.
You did make me realize that I should've included a statement regarding set and setting. 
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Check out my psychedelic acid rock: http://www.myspace.com/kingbeelovesyou
Disclaimer: All posts on this site concerning illegal substances are fictional accounts. I in no way endorse the use of or use any of these substances myself.
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