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 Helpme1
mershums
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 539
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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 Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: wildchild68]
#8389321 - 05/11/08 02:32 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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HPPD can be positive, ofcourse this is true. There are a lot of people that enjoy HPPD and are thankful to have it. On the flipside, it can be very depressing and can cause anxiety attacks and other such unpleasent things. I simply want it to be known that psychedelic use can cause very serious cognitive changes, that can be temporary, but are often times permanent...and these changes can cause a great deal of unhappiness.
And yes I looked up the actual definition of brain damage...that its degeneration of brain cells, but this is just being technical.
Can we not come to an agreement? That psychedelic use may cause latent psychological problems to arise, and that there is a very real possibility of developing a brain disorder that is potentially life long.
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absolutely positively delicious
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bmy
Stranger tomyself
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 183
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: DrugsAreFunn]
#8389334 - 05/11/08 02:36 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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I've had the exact same thoughts as the OP. However, when thinking it through a little more you realize that you are more then likely pretty much normal. Why would all your friends and family not tell you about you acting insane? Take a look at how people in your surrounding act towards people you know are insane, do they act like that towards you too? There are hints of your normality all over the place  And if everyone pretended you were not insane when you were, I must say that you must be the sane one and they the insane ones.
Anyways, as long as you're happy what does it matter if you are considered sane or insane?
Let the insanity flow! Normal is boring!
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bmy
Stranger tomyself
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 183
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: Helpme1]
#8389368 - 05/11/08 02:44 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Helpme1 said:
Can we not come to an agreement? That psychedelic use may cause latent psychological problems to arise, and that there is a very real possibility of developing a brain disorder that is potentially life long.
So can stress, depressions, vitamin insufficiency, protein insufficiency, (withdrawal from) alcohol abuse, chock, physical brain damage from falling etc, the list can go on forever.
It's about weighing the positives and the possible negatives. It's a subjective process. I think everybody here knows about the potential risks, they are just willing to take it. Just like people who ride their bikes without a helmet are willing to take the risk of permanent brain damage for the benefit of looking a bit "cooler" (which imho is far more stupid and far more risky).
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Helpme1
mershums
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 539
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: bmy]
#8389919 - 05/11/08 05:36 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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So just because there are other sources for these effects that I discussed.....we shouldn't come to an agreement ?
That we shouldn't make sure its widely known that psychedelics cause HPPD ?
Okay, first of all, before i completely obliterate your arguement in one fail swoop. I will say that my GOAL in saying this is increasing awareness to HPPD, and that you can't reverse the effects. I want people to be careful so that they don't damage themselves, and when people post on here that there is no brain damage, and the only thing that could possibly happen is latent schizophrenia uprising... Well it irks me...okay ?
Now, bmy, none of those things are going to cause HPPD, the only thing that causes that is use of psychedelic drugs.... These drugs can warp your mind. Seriously. Be fucking careful.
So when someone says that "Chill out. Psychedelics don't cause brain damage. They can trigger early onset of mental disorders, yes, but that isn't a result of brain damage." I see this as almost deception of a sort, remarking on the rare possibility of schizophrenia, yet not bringing up HPPD....hmmmm....
Also, its not about weighing positives, its about taking a fucking 50/50 shot in the dark gamble for your brain on wether or not you will get HPPD. I've used psychedelics safely and responsibly, yet I have HPPD....I didn't know about the risks before I ever tried these drugs. I'm trying to inform people. I don't see what is so unreasonable about this...
It is like you guys are trying to ignore the facts! Psychedelic drugs can warp your mind!
Trying to rationalize that there are other things that cause damage is not a valid point. Trying to rationalize that "brain damage" must be brain cell loss, and then spewing that psychedelics can't cause harm to your brain is NOT a valid point. Trying to rationalize that HPPD might be one mans horror and another mans heaven is NOT a valid point!
Shit! don't get me wrong! I love tripping, I don't mind my HPPD, and I honestly think these drugs are mis-represented in the global community, they aren't as bad as they are made out to be, but seriously they come with risks.
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absolutely positively delicious
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8494383/an/0/page/0
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wildchild68
Fifth Dimension
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 1,390
Last seen: 11 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: Helpme1]
#8390380 - 05/11/08 07:35 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Helpme1 said:
So just because there are other sources for these effects that I discussed.....we shouldn't come to an agreement ?
That we shouldn't make sure its widely known that psychedelics cause HPPD ?
Okay, first of all, before i completely obliterate your arguement in one fail swoop. I will say that my GOAL in saying this is increasing awareness to HPPD, and that you can't reverse the effects. I want people to be careful so that they don't damage themselves, and when people post on here that there is no brain damage, and the only thing that could possibly happen is latent schizophrenia uprising... Well it irks me...okay ?
Now, bmy, none of those things are going to cause HPPD, the only thing that causes that is use of psychedelic drugs.... These drugs can warp your mind. Seriously. Be fucking careful.
So when someone says that "Chill out. Psychedelics don't cause brain damage. They can trigger early onset of mental disorders, yes, but that isn't a result of brain damage." I see this as almost deception of a sort, remarking on the rare possibility of schizophrenia, yet not bringing up HPPD....hmmmm....
Also, its not about weighing positives, its about taking a fucking 50/50 shot in the dark gamble for your brain on wether or not you will get HPPD. I've used psychedelics safely and responsibly, yet I have HPPD....I didn't know about the risks before I ever tried these drugs. I'm trying to inform people. I don't see what is so unreasonable about this...
It is like you guys are trying to ignore the facts! Psychedelic drugs can warp your mind!
Trying to rationalize that there are other things that cause damage is not a valid point. Trying to rationalize that "brain damage" must be brain cell loss, and then spewing that psychedelics can't cause harm to your brain is NOT a valid point. Trying to rationalize that HPPD might be one mans horror and another mans heaven is NOT a valid point!
Shit! don't get me wrong! I love tripping, I don't mind my HPPD, and I honestly think these drugs are mis-represented in the global community, they aren't as bad as they are made out to be, but seriously they come with risks.
I agree they come with risks. Everything in life does.
I don't think anyone is really arguing changes are not possible, but that does not mean it is damage, which you continually insist upon.
Also, HPPD is definitely not always permanent. I have some lasting visual effects sometimes usually following an actual trip that dissapate over time.
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DimensionX
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,336
Last seen: 28 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: wildchild68]
#8390419 - 05/11/08 07:46 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Worse case scenario psychedelics could cause a psychosis. It is not necessary for you to have a latent mental illness for this to happen. Usually it would happen because someone is abusing them. But it would not surprise me if there is a very small percentage of people who could have a psychotic episode without abusing them. Almost everything in life carrys some kind of risk, if you are aware of them you can take steps to avoid them.
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It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my powers.
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allhallows
4th dimensionexplorer
Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 194
Loc: NJ
Last seen: 1 month, 16 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: wildchild68]
#8390518 - 05/11/08 08:10 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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what? Hi? Where? Ahhhhhhh!
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chronicSKUNK
man with a planto expand
Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 66
Loc: planet earth
Last seen: 4 months, 28 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: wildchild68]
#8391086 - 05/11/08 11:24 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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ken kesey said in an interview regarding his state of mind after his many government lsd tests...
reporter"do you feel you have been negatively affected by lsd?"
kesey" well i think that you dont get anything free. everything bruises something. so you trade off."
i think he means that the knowledge gained from lsd and shrooms is worth the so called "brain damage" you might feel in later years to come.
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“None but ourselves can free our minds.”
who else could it be?
Bob Marley
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bmy
Stranger tomyself
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 183
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: Helpme1]
#8391614 - 05/12/08 03:31 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Helpme1 said:
So just because there are other sources for these effects that I discussed.....we shouldn't come to an agreement ?
That we shouldn't make sure its widely known that psychedelics cause HPPD ?
Of course we should inform as much as possible. It would be highly irresponsible to hide facts and theories. But the facts should be presented in a fair way. Saying "Psychedelics causes brain damage" is not a fair way to present the fact that "Psychedelics may cause HPPD in rare cases, and may bring up latent schizophrenia".
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
Okay, first of all, before i completely obliterate your arguement in one fail swoop. I will say that my GOAL in saying this is increasing awareness to HPPD, and that you can't reverse the effects. I want people to be careful so that they don't damage themselves, and when people post on here that there is no brain damage, and the only thing that could possibly happen is latent schizophrenia uprising... Well it irks me...okay ?
I agree with you that increasing awareness is a good thing, but as I said above, do it in a fair way. For all we know the risk of getting HPPD may be increased by just thinking that you will get it, and thus by saying you are likely to get HPPD you may increase the chances of someone getting it. Don't underestimate the placebo.
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
Now, bmy, none of those things are going to cause HPPD, the only thing that causes that is use of psychedelic drugs.... These drugs can warp your mind. Seriously. Be fucking careful.
Could we get a references for this statement. Last time I checked no one knew what exactly caused HPPD. Not saying psychedelics isn't a source, just saying that it may not be the only source.
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
So when someone says that "Chill out. Psychedelics don't cause brain damage. They can trigger early onset of mental disorders, yes, but that isn't a result of brain damage." I see this as almost deception of a sort, remarking on the rare possibility of schizophrenia, yet not bringing up HPPD....hmmmm....
Also, its not about weighing positives, its about taking a fucking 50/50 shot in the dark gamble for your brain on wether or not you will get HPPD. I've used psychedelics safely and responsibly, yet I have HPPD....I didn't know about the risks before I ever tried these drugs. I'm trying to inform people. I don't see what is so unreasonable about this...
Once again, a reference to your statement of a 50% chance of getting HPPD when using psychedelics would be nice.
Here is a reference for you, stating quite the opposite http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=6649
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
It is like you guys are trying to ignore the facts! Psychedelic drugs can warp your mind!
Psychedelic drugs will warp your mind, that's kind of the point.
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
Trying to rationalize that there are other things that cause damage is not a valid point. Trying to rationalize that "brain damage" must be brain cell loss, and then spewing that psychedelics can't cause harm to your brain is NOT a valid point. Trying to rationalize that HPPD might be one mans horror and another mans heaven is NOT a valid point!
Now you are just picking validity in points as you see fit. Everything in life (well, almost everything at least) may cause unwanted effects. Everyone is aware of this (well, almost everyone at least). The point being that you either take a risk and live a rich life or you don't and live your life in your safe bubble, which in my opinion isn't really living at all.
Quote:
Helpme1 said:
Shit! don't get me wrong! I love tripping, I don't mind my HPPD, and I honestly think these drugs are mis-represented in the global community, they aren't as bad as they are made out to be, but seriously they come with risks.
Life is dangerous, you may die!
[edit]
Oh, and I should put in a word about damage too. There is no said way a brain should work, or a human should act. It is damage when you yourself consider it damage. You can say that a car is damaged if it doesn't take you from point A to point B, but the only reason you call it damaged is because you want it to take you from point A to point B. If you wanted the car to be a place to sleep and nothing else it wouldn't be damaged at all. It's all about context and intention.
If you consider your intended purpose in life to not have HPPD, and you have HPPD, you are damaged. If you considered your intended purpose in life to be happy and your HPPD did not change your state of happiness, you are not damaged.
Of course, someone else who consider HPPD to be damage will say that you are damaged. But that doesn't change the fact that you are not damaged by your standards, which should be the only important thing for you.
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Edited by bmy (05/12/08 03:49 AM)
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DimensionX
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,336
Last seen: 28 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: bmy]
#8391632 - 05/12/08 03:51 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
bmy said:
["Psychedelics may cause HPPD in rare cases, and may bring up latent schizophrenia".
Thats true. But psychosis and schizophrenia are two different things, the symptoms are similar, but the bad thing about psychosis is you don't have to have a latent mental illness for it to occur. It can be cured with medication fortunately. To my mind psychosis is the greatest risk when it comes to psychedelics. And its not a case of brain damage, nothing has been broken, it just the brain having a chemical imbalance.
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It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my powers.
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bmy
Stranger tomyself
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 183
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: DimensionX]
#8391644 - 05/12/08 04:07 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said:
Thats true. But psychosis and schizophrenia are two different things, the symptoms are similar, but the bad thing about psychosis is you don't have to have a latent mental illness for it to occur. It can be cured with medication fortunately. To my mind psychosis is the greatest risk when it comes to psychedelics. And its not a case of brain damage, nothing has been broken, it just the brain having a chemical imbalance.
Just to take the other side of the argument for a moment. You could say that there is a damage in the balance of chemicals and thus brain damage.
I totally agree with you on psychosis being the greatest risk!
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DimensionX
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,336
Last seen: 28 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: bmy]
#8391653 - 05/12/08 04:13 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Your right you could think of it like that. Buts its different to say the damage alcohol does, which can actually kill brain cells. I don't think the mainstream psychedelics cause this kind of direct damage.
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It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my powers.
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anyone420
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 3,567
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: DimensionX]
#8391675 - 05/12/08 04:58 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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stay educated about exactly how the gov does bullshit and explain it in simple terms for people
anyway about them drugs i say get dumb
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 824
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: DimensionX]
#8391920 - 05/12/08 08:43 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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I've known numerous people with HPPD-similar effects who never ingested a hallucinogenic compound. However it would make sense that after the psychedelic experience one would be more apt to notice such function.
Until there is more research I think none of us have real right of way to make any such 'truth' statements about the physical effect of psychedelics on the brain. Of course the experience can have negative effects, but it also seems that these effects are primarily, (if not completely), psychological.
Until the avenues of true psychiatric studies can be re-opened we are all playing with our dicks here and merely tossing around our subjective opinions/experience and vague generalities from stereotypes and anecdotal evidence.
HPPD rates, in the few studies done, have resulted in a 5-8% of the study groups who articulate discernible difference, NOT 50%.
Though, frankly, judging from the age of death of Albert Hofmann and the current age of Alexander Shulgin, it seems that the experience can also help lead to conditions that may INCREASE lifespan. I doubt there would be any objection from these men that these compounds helped them in many ways.
Of course some will have averse effects. You create an alien perception with these compounds that tears away the basic evolved sense of normalcy and reality. There is no black and white with this sort of argument.
Psychedelic use will benefit some, cause adverse effects for others, and almost certainly have middle ground in both regards for the majority.
This makes this topic synonymous with any other drug, food, diet, habit, hobby, worldview, etc.
YOUR experience does not account for MINE applies here.
~Monk
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LSDreamer
Carpe Noctem
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 2,188
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: DimensionX]
#8392030 - 05/12/08 09:45 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said:
Your right you could think of it like that. Buts its different to say the damage alcohol does, which can actually kill brain cells. I don't think the mainstream psychedelics cause this kind of direct damage.
Alcohol doesn't kill brain cells, it destroys dendrites.
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We are building up a new world
Do not sit idly by
Do not remain neutral
Do not rely on this broadcast alone
We are only as strong as our signal
There is a war going on for your mind
If you are thinking you are winning
Resistance is victory, Defeat is impossible. Your weapons are already in hand
Reach within you and find the means by which to gain your freedom
Fight with tools. Your fate and that of everyone you know depends on it
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Helpme1
mershums
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 539
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: LSDreamer]
#8392218 - 05/12/08 10:51 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Wow bro, you are completely underplaying HPPD....
in order for someone to have HPPD, one of the requirments is that they must have taken a hallucinogenic drug...
Psychosis from psychedelic drugs is VERY rare. Schizophrenia related to psychedelics is RARE. You people are foolish in thinking that just becuase you didn't get HPPD the first 20 times you trip, that the next 20 times you trip it wont develop...
Its a very incremental disorder, the harder you trip and the more you trip will add to it. I can even notice HPPD flavorings...like...after i do LSD ill see lots of tracers and "electric" looking floaters. After taking mushrooms the following weeks the HPPD will be pretty mellow, more "wavy" less colors..etc....Also it gets a lot worse the more you use them. Almost to the point where it feels like at times you are on a hallucinogenic drug.
Keep in mind, you've got to trip a lot to get to this point, i am aware of the risks, yet dont give a flying fuck. But I have read reports of suicides and lives being utterly RUINED by this disorder. I really want to end this arguement since i'm obviously losing...
Just be aware that HPPD sneaks up on you....
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absolutely positively delicious
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8494383/an/0/page/0
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LSDreamer
Carpe Noctem
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 2,188
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: Helpme1]
#8392223 - 05/12/08 10:52 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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^People who killed themselves over HPPD probably just needed to chill the FUCK out or else had some other issue as well. Just a guess.
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We are building up a new world
Do not sit idly by
Do not remain neutral
Do not rely on this broadcast alone
We are only as strong as our signal
There is a war going on for your mind
If you are thinking you are winning
Resistance is victory, Defeat is impossible. Your weapons are already in hand
Reach within you and find the means by which to gain your freedom
Fight with tools. Your fate and that of everyone you know depends on it
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Helpme1
mershums
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 539
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: LSDreamer]
#8392304 - 05/12/08 11:21 AM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Yes, obviously you have problems if you are considering suicide, but that doesn't mean that we should just let them warp their minds and commit suicide. I think as long as you know the risks, you can be at peace with HPPD, its pretty scary to all of a sudden have it, when you didn't even know you could get it. Seriously. I've been through that, fortunately I've made my peace with it.
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absolutely positively delicious
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8494383/an/0/page/0
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xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1,144
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 5 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: Helpme1]
#8393014 - 05/12/08 02:31 PM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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Helpme, it is junk language to say that psychedelics cause brain damage, the idea of causation is nearly indefensible philosophically. Read some Hume and Popper.
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I want to tell you a story,
About a little man,
If I can,
A gnome named Grimble Grumble,
And little gnomes stay in their homes,
Eating, sleeping, Drinking their wine
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ultimo101
Mushroomhead
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 601
Last seen: 1 day, 10 hours
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Re: Am I insane? thought loop! [Re: xFrockx]
#8393622 - 05/12/08 05:39 PM (4 months, 27 days ago) |
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woah this turned out from a trippy thought to a full blown arguement about HPPD and suicide thoughts :S
Sorry guys X^D
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