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 NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
 
Registered: 09/01/02
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 Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8383589 - 05/09/08 10:42 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Yes. Or for specific experience one tends to find pleasurable. Let me rephrase my original statement more coherently:
To enjoy one thing more than another is to attibute the experience of pleasure to the prefered item or feeling and to value pleasure above a lack of pleasure.
Or in standard form to really hammer all the premises down:
1. To enjoy is to experience pleasure
2. To enjoy a specific thing is to attribute the experience of pleasure to the thing
3. To prefer enjoyment over a lack of enjoyment is to attribute value to the experience of pleasure
4. To prefer a specific thing is to attribute value to it
5. Value is synonymous with meaning
Therefore, to find a specific thing enjoyable is to find meaning in it.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8385248 - 05/10/08 01:13 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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I like what Sartre said about it. "It's not pessimism but in reality optimistic toughness"
It all comes down to self responsibility. We are what we do and not what we say. There is freedom in existentialism but it ain't for sissies. You have to have guts of steel so to speak otherwise you will be drowned in pessimism.
The reason IMO, that existentialism is so difficult is the fact that we are raised to believe the opposite from birth. Were we brought up with it I believe it would be a piece of cake.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8386790 - 05/10/08 07:54 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Pleasure is an experience, not an attributed meaning. Perhaps you are referring to a developed preference for pleasurable experiences?
I agree with you for the most part, but I was in a slump for a while and saw life as being devoid of meaning. It became difficult to find pleasure in anything during that time. Perhaps meaning and pleasure are not so different?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Oweyervishice]
#8387062 - 05/10/08 09:08 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Life is devoid of meaning in the way I suspect you mean it. We make our meaning out of whole cloth. Being finite creatures we cannot know if there is a specific meaning to existence.
Meaning and pleasure are very different things IMO.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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The Cypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3,963
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Icelander]
#8387075 - 05/10/08 09:13 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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I must agree. You can have meaningless pleasure, and you can have pleasure-less meaning. To find the two combined you have to be very lucky.
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the truth will set you free
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 21,641
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: The Cypher]
#8387083 - 05/10/08 09:15 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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It's very true that much is up to luck as far as pleasure goes.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Icelander]
#8387146 - 05/10/08 09:43 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Life is devoid of meaning in the way I suspect you mean it. We make our meaning out of whole cloth. Being finite creatures we cannot know if there is a specific meaning to existence.
Meaning and pleasure are very different things IMO.
I suppose you're right. What I went through was probably more depression than lack of meaning.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 9,705
Loc: PNW
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8389679 - 05/11/08 04:32 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Value is synonymous with meaning
Is it? If we believe that something is meaningful, we have decided that it is important or significant, which tends to mean that we also value it. Enjoyment or pleasure could be categorized in this manner.
However, if we are not attached to the continuation/ownership of this thing or experience, and can enjoy it for what it is while it persists, have we truly ascribed meaning to our pleasure?
It seems to me that the issue of meaninglessness being devoid of enjoyment has more to do with self-importance than a factual statement regarding pleasure. When we decide that pleasure should continue, and that what we prefer is meaningful, then we have become attached to the experience, rather than enjoying it.
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MushmanTheManic
AverageFrustrated Chump
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8391317 - 05/12/08 12:51 AM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Are you saying we should assign meaning to material objects? If so, I retort! Meaning can only exist subjectively. Assuming the non-existence of god and that the universe is in no way teleological, attributing "meaning" or "purpose" to the universe is a categorical error, because "meaning" and "purpose" are both wholly subjective phenomenon. As Hume would say, meaning deals with relations-of-ideas and not matters-of-fact. Another way of putting it would be that meaning is a rational concept and not an empiric one. Saying that objective phenomenon, such as mountains and pebbles, have any meaning in and of themselves is false. The universe is silent and will remain so regardless of how loud and convincing you converse with it.
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http://www.citizens-united.com
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8391363 - 05/12/08 01:11 AM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
5. Value is synonymous with meaning
I think this whole thread is really about value and not about meaning. (Nice syllogism by the way. Haven't seen one of those on here for awhile!) For me, at least, "meaning" is mostly a linguistic term or used to describe the covert significance of something besides language (such as artwork or a gesture.)
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http://www.citizens-united.com
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8392130 - 05/12/08 10:20 AM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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But the two terms seem to have overlapping meanings (er, definitions...)
e.g. I value my relationship with you.
or
My relationship with you is meaningful to me.
Perhaps they aren't precisely synonymous but they can be used interchangeably to arrive at the same point. If I said either of the above statements to someone, they would likely recieve the same message, that I consider them important to me, and perhaps we'd both find that moment of honest communication and interconnection to be meaningful.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 9,705
Loc: PNW
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8392149 - 05/12/08 10:26 AM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Another way of putting it would be that meaning is a rational concept and not an empiric one. Saying that objective phenomenon, such as mountains and pebbles, have any meaning in and of themselves is false.
Indeed! I would add that our reactions to objective phenomenon are what makes life interesting and worthwhile, and that we need not see these reactions as significant or important (synonyms for "meaningful") in order to enjoy them.
The delusion of objective significance is far more likely to result in depression than a clear-eyed, existentialist perspective, IMO.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8392280 - 05/12/08 11:13 AM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think the point of disagreement in this discussion is that you insist on defining the terms meaning, importance or significance as something extrinsic to the experiencing individual, as a more or less objective category, but the whole point being made by the OP and myself is that this is not the case and that meaning is purely subjective, and that because there is no objective meaning to existence, meaning is instead chosen (or passively inherited.) One's sense of meaning can be fixed or fluid, but I have my doubts as to whether or not it's even psychologically possible to live without at least minimally attributing differential value, meaning or significance to events, objects or experiences. One can live in the illusion that thier sense of meaning is somehow fundamental to objective reality, or they can realize it's purely thier own, but either way they still experience it.
It seems to me that there is hardly a disagreement between us at all, but rather, you have qualms with certain terms, perhaps due to connotations you attribute to them.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8392729 - 05/12/08 01:19 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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If we all agree that meaning is wholly subjective, then what does this have to do with Camus (being wrong)?
"Life is a perpetual choice."
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http://www.citizens-united.com
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AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8394606 - 05/12/08 09:40 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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The enjoyment of something has tons of connotations. Enjoyment in itself is significant because it is a reason to continue living, and happily at that. And voila, whatever you are enjoying is meaningful by association. Yes, you can "simply enjoy" something, but that doesn't mean it escapes the realm of meaning.
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Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
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andrewss
wünscht säure
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8394795 - 05/12/08 10:29 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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I have to admit I skimmed through some of the subsequent posts, but read the first post.
Anyway, where are you really critiquing Camus? I haven't read that much of him. But suppose I can reference to the basic existential/absurdism position. That perhaps there isn't an intrinsic meaning outlined from a deity for humanity and all creation. But what has been "burdened" for the rational man is realizing that we are quite free in the sense that we all have to individually make a choice to assign meaning to our lives. Many many people use more collective sources for meaning (dogma, etc) or some perhaps take the possibly more difficult path of assigning their lives meaning in a more outsider way.
Either way, a human takes some action to assign meaning, whether it is a more collective sense or individual sense, a living human is attributing some meaning. But what I appreciate most is the genuine man who is most honest with himself. But yes, despair and nihilism creeps around the corner of this more free state of mind as compared to taking part in an organized faith.
Hope that makes some sense.
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes
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Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8394833 - 05/12/08 10:43 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Another way of putting it would be that meaning is a rational concept and not an empiric one. Saying that objective phenomenon, such as mountains and pebbles, have any meaning in and of themselves is false.
Indeed! I would add that our reactions to objective phenomenon are what makes life interesting and worthwhile, and that we need not see these reactions as significant or important (synonyms for "meaningful") in order to enjoy them.
The delusion of objective significance is far more likely to result in depression than a clear-eyed, existentialist perspective, IMO.
I agree, reactions are what makes life what it is. Even objectively, if nothing reacted, this would be a dead universe.
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