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Madtowntripper
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Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes?
#8385664 - 05/10/08 02:55 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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This post is prompted by a relatively intelligent editorial from a Time magazine writer that I had read this morning regarding the current humanitarian crisis in the Southeast Asian state of Myanmar. The full article is posted below, but I'll start off with a summary and my thoughts. The basic idea of the story is that the crisis in Myanmar, while initially precipitated by the cyclone that struck the country, has been greatly magnified by the government there. This government, a military junta that has never been legitimized in any kind of vote or constitution, has blocked nearly every kind of aid from every single country that has tried to help. There are, quite literally, fleets of ships and aircrafts FULL of food and relief supplies sitting in harbors or on tarmacs at ports and airfields in the countries surrounding Myanmar. These supplies are accompanied by a veritable army of relief and medical workers, but none but a trickle has been allowed into the country. The ruling junta is extremely paranoid of all outside intervention and refuses any kind of help.
So the question posed by author is; should the rest of the world ignore the demands of the junta and begin food drops and deliveries over Myanmar immediately? Such an action would ALMOST ASSUREDLY save tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of lives. Keep in mind, it has been a week since this catastrophe and almost 100,000 are thought to be dead already. Food, water, and medical supplies are almost nonexistent. There is no doubt that this would save lives.
There is also no doubt that such an action would likely be opposed by the countries rulers. They would likely fire upon aircraft, even those delivering relief supplies, and units that fire on an allied aircraft from any country would need to be neutralized. So people would be killed. But surely the number killed in a military action would be several orders of magnitude less than those who are sure to die of malnutrition or disease in the next several weeks.
I'm curious if some of the isolationists and pacifists here would oppose a move to provide relief in Myanmar, even if military action would be needed to make such a move. Keep in mind, as the author of the article states, that this would not be unprecedented. America has in fact done this before, in both Bosnia and the Sudan.
What about our resident Republicans? Any interest in providing real humanitarian aid to a country? Or are the Burmese somehow less deserving of US help than Baghdadis?
And to the far leftists here, do you believe this is somehow a US plot? Did our weather machines cause the cyclone? Are we just trying to get at the oil reserves of Myanmar? Do they have a crashed alien craft we need to recover? I realize all of these are insanely crazy, but I didn't want you to feel left out.
Thoughts, please.
Here's the article and a link.
Quote:
The disaster in Burma presents the world with perhaps its most serious humanitarian crisis since the 2004 Asian tsunami. By most reliable estimates, close to 100,000 people are dead. Delays in delivering relief to the victims, the inaccessibility of the stricken areas and the poor state of Burma's infrastructure and health systems mean that number is sure to rise. With as many as 1 million people still at risk, it is conceivable that the death toll will, within days, approach that of the entire number of civilians killed in the genocide in Darfur. ADVERTISEMENT
So what is the world doing about it? Not much. The military regime that runs Burma initially signaled it would accept outside relief, but has imposed so many conditions on those who would actually deliver it that barely a trickle has made it through. Aid workers have been held at airports. U.N. food shipments have been seized. U.S. naval ships packed with food and medicine idle in the Gulf of Thailand, waiting for an all-clear that may never come.
Burma's rulers have relented slightly, agreeing Friday to let in supplies and perhaps even some foreign relief workers. The government says it will allow a US C-130 transport plane to land inside Burma Monday. But it's hard to imagine a regime this insular and paranoid accepting robust aid from the U.S. military, let alone agreeing to the presence of U.S. Marines on Burmese soil - as Thailand and Indonesia did after the tsunami. The trouble is that the Burmese haven't shown the ability or willingness to deploy the kind of assets needed to deal with a calamity of this scale - and the longer Burma resists offers of help, the more likely it is that the disaster will devolve beyond anyone's control. "We're in 2008, not 1908," says Jan Egeland, the former U.N. emergency relief coordinator. "A lot is at stake here. If we let them get away with murder we may set a very dangerous precedent."
That's why it's time to consider a more serious option: invading Burma. Some observers, including former USAID director Andrew Natsios, have called on the U.S. to unilaterally begin air drops to the Burmese people regardless of what the junta says. The Bush Administration has so far rejected the idea - "I can't imagine us going in without the permission of the Myanmar government," Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday - but it's not without precedent: as Natsios pointed out to the Wall Street Journal, the U.S. has facilitated the delivery of humanitarian aid without the host government's consent in places like Bosnia and Sudan.
A coercive humanitarian intervention would be complicated and costly. During the 2004 tsunami, some 24 U.S. ships and 16,000 troops were deployed in countries across the region; the mission cost the U.S. $5 million a day. Ultimately, the U.S. pledged nearly $900 million to tsunami relief. (By contrast, it has offered just $3.25 million to Burma.) But the risks would be greater this time: the Burmese government's xenophobia and insecurity make them prone to view U.S. troops - or worse, foreign relief workers - as hostile forces. (Remember Black Hawk Down?) Even if the U.S. and its allies made clear that their actions were strictly for humanitarian purposes, it's unlikely the junta would believe them. "You have to think it through - do you want to secure an area of the country by military force? What kinds of potential security risks would that create?" says Egelend. "I can't imagine any humanitarian organization wanting to shoot their way in with food."
So what other options exist? Retired General William Nash of the Council on Foreign Relations says the U.S. should first pressure China to use its influence over the junta to get them to open up and then supply support to the Thai and Indonesian militaries to carry out relief missions. "We can pay for it - we can provide repair parts to the Indonesians so they can get their Air Force up. We can lend the them two C-130s and let them paint the Indonesian flag on them," Nash says. "We have to get the stuff to people who can deliver it and who the Burmese government will accept, even if takes an extra day or two and even if it's not as efficient as the good old U.S. military." Egeland advocates that the U.N. Security Council take punitive steps short of war, such as freezing the regime's assets and issuing warrants for the arrest of individual junta members if they were to leave the country. Similar measures succeeded in getting the government of Ivory Coast to let in foreign relief teams in 2002, Egelend says.
And if that fails? "It's important for the rulers to know the world has other options," Egeland says. "If there were, say, the threat of a cholera epidemic that could claim hundreds of thousands of lives and the government was incapable of preventing it, then maybe yes - you would intervene unilaterally." But by then, it could be too late. The cold truth is that states rarely undertake military action unless their national interests are at stake; and the world has yet to reach a consensus about when, and under what circumstances, coercive interventions in the name of averting humanitarian disasters are permissible. As the response to the 2004 tsunami proved, the world's capacity for mercy is limitless. But we still haven't figured out when to give war a chance. View this article on Time.com
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Phred
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8385875 - 05/10/08 03:47 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Time: "Is It Time To Invade Burma?" —Ace
Remarkable, isn't it? Give the left a purely humanitarian mission, untainted by any possibility of the US advancing its own security interests, and they're ready to expend all the blood and treasure in the world in a unilateral war of choice.
There's no doubt that we have the moral right to invade Burma. There's little doubt that, given enough soldiers (and deaths), we could do some good there.
But isn't it awfully funny the left is forever undermining the wars we're actually fighting and agitating to start wars which are not in our clear national interest and hence almost certainly won't fight?
If the left wants a humanitarian crusade -- how about getting on board with the two wars we're already engaged in and have very nearly won entirely?
Or does the fact that America might actually be benefited from such victories make them too costly to even contemplate?
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/262156.php
Phred
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8385935 - 05/10/08 04:05 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I didn't ask whether you or your Fascis..Republican blogger counterparts think the writer of the article is a Pinko Commie Lib.
I asked for a reasonable discussion of his idea. If you don't have any intelligent commentary of your own to add, please leave the blatant partisanship to another thread.
Thanks.
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Phred
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8385954 - 05/10/08 04:11 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I agree with Ace. He just saved me some typing.
It is the height of hypocrisy for Time - as staunch a critic of the "unilateral invasion of a sovereign nation" trope as there is - to pimp the unilateral invasion of a different sovereign nation.
Phred
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8386095 - 05/10/08 04:54 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I think it's a pretty important distinction to make that the title of the article is the only place that an word "invasion" is used. For you to imply that the author is calling for something in any way resembling the invasion if Iraq is just plain misleading.
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Seuss
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8386262 - 05/10/08 05:34 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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> There's no doubt that we have the moral right to invade Burma.
Uh, "moral right to invade"? I didn't realize that Burma had declared war on the US. Oh silly me, I forgot about Article 7 of the World Constitution that empowers the US to enforce moral values upon the world through military might. Moral right to invade? Because we don't like how they treat their citizens? Please.
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Phred
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8386302 - 05/10/08 05:46 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
I think it's a pretty important distinction to make that the title of the article is the only place that an word "invasion" is used.
And of course the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the editorial -- "That's why it's time to consider a more serious option: invading Burma."
So yeah... the editors at Time just chose words at random for the titles of their Op-ed pieces. Sheer coincidence.
Phred
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Phred
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Seuss]
#8386314 - 05/10/08 05:48 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Uh, "moral right to invade"? I didn't realize that Burma had declared war on the US.
Any free nation has the moral right to assist the enslaved in freeing themselves. Do not confuse "right" with "obligation", however.
Phred
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8386365 - 05/10/08 06:03 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
I think it's a pretty important distinction to make that the title of the article is the only place that an word "invasion" is used.
And of course the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the editorial -- "That's why it's time to consider a more serious option: invading Burma."
So yeah... the editors at Time just chose words at random for the titles of their Op-ed pieces. Sheer coincidence.
Phred
And my point is still valid, what is being described in this article and what YOU are describing are not even close to the same thing.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8386576 - 05/10/08 06:59 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Perhaps it is time for China and/or India to step up and assume some of the responsibilities that their incipient success might command of them. We might even find some heretofore hidden use for the European Union, as well, but I hold out little hope that those feckless cunts have anything left to offer the world.
-------------------- "For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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JRayV
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8387113 - 05/10/08 09:27 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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The U.S., no.
The U.N., if they can agree on taking action as a whole, maybe.
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afoaf
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8387734 - 05/11/08 12:32 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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shocking...you mean Americans are more likely to back a strictly humanitarian effort in a country that is in dire need of medical support over a bullshit war premised on lies and shady politics?
I think it is in our national interests to assist here.
much more so than it was *in our interests* to foment this iraqi morass.
-------------------- I eat steak medium at most, I use bare hands to eat it and its usually after an hour long fuck fest with several women, and with a full keg of the coldest beer.
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: afoaf]
#8387818 - 05/11/08 12:53 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Bad Idea, going to a paranoid xenophobic country and forcibly giving them aid will make them think you are hostile. It'll be like Somalia in 1993.
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afoaf
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8387833 - 05/11/08 12:58 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I should rephrase.
I don't necessarily think we should invade Burma.
I'm just saying that the argument that liberals are whack because they are more keen on helping suffering after a massive natural disaster as opposed to this farce in Iraq is just about the most ridiculous thing Phred has linked recently...and he's linked some pretty ridiculous blogarbage lately.
We don't need to send in troops, air drop some food and first aid.
-------------------- I eat steak medium at most, I use bare hands to eat it and its usually after an hour long fuck fest with several women, and with a full keg of the coldest beer.
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: afoaf]
#8387882 - 05/11/08 01:17 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: I should rephrase.
I don't necessarily think we should invade Burma.
I'm just saying that the argument that liberals are whack because they are more keen on helping suffering after a massive natural disaster as opposed to this farce in Iraq is just about the most ridiculous thing Phred has linked recently...and he's linked some pretty ridiculous blogarbage lately.
We don't need to send in troops, air drop some food and first aid.
Well thats cause Phred has the urge to make everything into a partisan issue, he fails to notice the millions in aid Bush gave indoensia and thailand or pakistan or the millions of aid given annualy.
As for that air drop part, What would happen if Burma shot SAM's at our airplanes dropping food thinking we were trying to brainwash or invade them, that country is thoroughly batshit.
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The Tourist
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: afoaf]
#8387885 - 05/11/08 01:19 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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I'm a leftie, so this is obviously what I believe: The Reptilians built an underwater machine that manipulates ocean temperatures and can create and direct massive cyclones. They want to invade Myanmar so they can build a massive secret military headquarters and finish the global network of underground cities and tunnels, allowing the elite to finally have unimpeded control of and access to the entire world, including India. The reptilians also feed off of plants that are found only in Myanmar.
And the spaceship thing, too.
Thanks for welcoming my thoughts!
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afoaf
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8387916 - 05/11/08 01:30 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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do those backwards fucks even have SAMs?!
-------------------- I eat steak medium at most, I use bare hands to eat it and its usually after an hour long fuck fest with several women, and with a full keg of the coldest beer.
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The Tourist
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: afoaf]
#8387941 - 05/11/08 01:43 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Yeah, and do they even know about GM and Coca Cola?!?! They probably don't even purchase western gatling guns and laser-guided bombs because they're too poor.
Fuckin barbarians...
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Mushmonkey
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8388086 - 05/11/08 03:18 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: There is also no doubt that such an action would likely be opposed by the countries rulers. They would likely fire upon aircraft,
LOL WITH WHAT SLINGSHOTS?
.. seriously i bet you could safely fly a cessna over that shithole country.
yes, drop the food.
and i'll just get this out now. i don't believe that 100,000 figure. yes, people died in the storm.. but i'm willing to bet that the military junta is seeing this as an easy way to legitimize why so many people aren't around any more. we KNOW they've been killing people and wiping whole villages out -- we have the damned satellite images of village here, now not here -- is it really a stretch to think they might include some of those people as being killed now?
Quote:
JRayV said: The U.S., no.
The U.N., if they can agree on taking action as a whole, maybe.
that won't ever fucking happen. the UN agreeing on taking action? lol.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#8388280 - 05/11/08 07:31 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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China could get rid of those criminals in a heartbeat. Possibly without firing a shot of their own.
-------------------- "For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8388290 - 05/11/08 07:44 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: China could get rid of those criminals in a heartbeat. Possibly without firing a shot of their own.
Agreed, and it would be nice to see them do something.
But as much as they hemmed and hawed and then did next-to-nothing about Darfur, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8388360 - 05/11/08 08:25 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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This is getting to be distressing. You have actually agreed with me several times lately and professed your undying love in the Sports Forum. Well, maybe not undying, but perhaps a bit of a mancrush, eh? Scary. Soon you'll be sending me flowers. I've seen it before and it always ends in disappointment for one of the parties. I'll leave it to you to guess which one.
-------------------- "For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Madtowntripper
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8388367 - 05/11/08 08:29 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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You know, I am coming up to NYC to see a Yankees game w/ OMR before they rip down your Stadium.
Maybe I'll show up at your doorstep in August.
           
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JRayV
guy on the couch
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