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 deimya
tofu with monocle
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 460
Loc: ausländer.ch
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 Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8368027 - 05/06/08 07:45 AM (5 months, 7 days ago) |
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Yes indeed.
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maggotz
Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 5,778
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: DieCommie]
#8371997 - 05/07/08 06:18 AM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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thanks.
now i'm clear as to why the situation is not symmetric but i'm still not sure why there is an age difference. i know it has to do with speed but why?
why and how does approaching c affect time? also, it affects time itself, right? not just the perception of time. i'd appreciate any links to info.
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 undergrounder
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,267
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 11 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: maggotz]
#8372114 - 05/07/08 07:33 AM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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*grabs 'Stephen Hawkings - A Brief History of Time'*
*blows the dust off*
*opens up to page 3, where the bookmark still is*
ahem..
Time is not absolute. Each individual has his own personal measure of time that depends on where he is and how he is moving. Space and time are dynamic quantities. When a body moves or a force acts, it affects the curvature of space and time -- and in turn the structure of space-time affacts the way in which bodies move and forces act. Space and time not only affect, but are also affected by everything that happens in the universe.
Time is localised. It exists at a point in space, because it is tied to space -- the space time continuum. This means that just as you and i differ in our locality in terms of space, in the same way we differ in terms of time.
Now take this very real experiment that happened in 1962: Two clocks were placed one at the top of a tower and the other at the bottom. The clock at the top is moving faster through space relative to the one at the bottom. This is because it is sitting further away from the centre of the earth. And just as you move faster at the edge of a wheel than at the centre, so things that are at high elevations in the earth are moving faster than things at sea level - relative to eachother. Now back to the experiment, the clock at the top was found to run faster than the one at the bottom, in exact agreement with the theory of relativity. Both clocks were perfectly the accurate.
It's the same with physiological clocks. If you were to sit at the top of the tower and your exact twin at the bottom, you would become older than your twin - your heart would have pumped itself more times.
The effect is miniscule when talking about clock towers, an astronaut orbiting his twin on earth would age only a matter of seconds older over a year. But at speeds approaching c, the effect is much greater.
(Paraphrased and added to for relevance)
*Closes book*
Does that help?
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 RIP
Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
   
Edited by undergrounder (05/07/08 07:38 AM)
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undergrounder
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,267
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 11 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: undergrounder]
#8372150 - 05/07/08 07:44 AM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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P.S. If you wave your right arm about like a madman, i guess it is moving through time faster than your left arm. Isn't that cool?
... Every time your husband/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend travels on a train while you're getting stoned on the couch, they are getting older than you.. suckers..
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RIP
Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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HagbardCeline
ProfessionalAsshole
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 5,609
Loc: In a deep, deep, deep, da...
Last seen: 14 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: undergrounder]
#8372551 - 05/07/08 10:26 AM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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I'm having a hard time understanding why Hawking would write that. It doesn't make sense. Why would the traveling person age more?
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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 DieCommie
Ally
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 6,638
Loc: The Union
Last seen: 24 seconds
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8373228 - 05/07/08 01:57 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Thats part of the theory of relativity. Its called time dilation, time progresses slower for moving things than stationary ones.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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deimya
tofu with monocle
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 460
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: DieCommie]
#8373486 - 05/07/08 03:02 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Also the language might be misleading. It is not really that the person ages more as if the aging process was accelerated but rather that there was more time to age normally.
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HagbardCeline
ProfessionalAsshole
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 5,609
Loc: In a deep, deep, deep, da...
Last seen: 14 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: DieCommie]
#8373555 - 05/07/08 03:21 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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I understand that, but his quote from Hawking says the opposite. He said the clock at the top of the tower was faster and likewise the astronaut would age more than his stationary sibling.
I'm reading that as saying time speeds up for moving objects and that isn't correct. Either he's misquoting Hawking or Hawking made a huge error in that book.
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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maggotz
Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 5,778
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: deimya]
#8373624 - 05/07/08 03:40 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
deimya said:
Also the language might be misleading. It is not really that the person ages more as if the aging process was accelerated but rather that there was more time to age normally.
that makes more sense to me.
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HagbardCeline
ProfessionalAsshole
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 5,609
Loc: In a deep, deep, deep, da...
Last seen: 14 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: deimya]
#8373630 - 05/07/08 03:41 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Huh? "More time to age normally" would mean you experienced time faster than the stationary person. That's still saying that the person would age more and that would have to mean that time was experienced faster for the traveling person.
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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deimya
tofu with monocle
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 460
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8373651 - 05/07/08 03:47 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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The thing with the tower is a bit misleading since locally both the tower and the ground are immobile relative to each others. It has more to do with acceleration effect since the top of the tower is further from the Earth's center and thus feeling a weaker gravitational acceleration. It is not an effect between inertial frames of reference, that is frames with a simple relative constant speed. So here the funny thing is that two frames might have zero relative speed but non-zero relative acceleration, which also entails time dilatation. But what Hawking says is somewhat true, or at least not entirely false.
Edited by deimya (05/07/08 03:53 PM)
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deimya
tofu with monocle
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 460
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8373666 - 05/07/08 03:51 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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A more accurate way of saying it is that for two observers zooming past each others (or distancing themselves) at constant speed, both will see the other's watch as ticking faster, but both will see their own watch ticking at the same speed. There is no absolute frame of reference so there's no way of telling if you're moving or not, only that you are moving relative to something else. After all you are always immobile relative to you, and so you always age the same from your perspective.
Hawking is speaking of accelerated frames of reference effects as I said in my previous post.
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HagbardCeline
ProfessionalAsshole
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 5,609
Loc: In a deep, deep, deep, da...
Last seen: 14 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: deimya]
#8373966 - 05/07/08 05:11 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Ok, I can understand that then for the watch in the clock tower, but that still doesn't explain the astronaut. I understand that while the trip is going on that it would appear to both that hey have slowed down, but when the astronaut gets back home and goes to have dinner at his brother's house, he should be younger.
Why does Hawking say that he would have aged more?
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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HagbardCeline
ProfessionalAsshole
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 5,609
Loc: In a deep, deep, deep, da...
Last seen: 14 hours, 21 minutes
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: deimya]
#8374062 - 05/07/08 05:34 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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And here we have it. undergrounder's paraphrasing wasn't all that accurate. 
Quote:
Another prediction of general relativity is that time should appear to slower near a massive body like the earth.
This is because there is a relation between the energy of light and its frequency (that is, the number of waves of
light per second): the greater the energy, the higher frequency. As light travels upward in the earth’s
gravitational field, it loses energy, and so its frequency goes down. (This means that the length of time between
one wave crest and the next goes up.) To someone high up, it would appear that everything down below was
making longer to happen. This prediction was tested in 1962, using a pair of very accurate clocks mounted at
the top and bottom of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, which was nearer the earth, was found to run
slower, in exact agreement with general relativity. The difference in the speed of clocks at different heights
above the earth is now of considerable practical importance, with the advent of very accurate navigation
systems based on signals from satellites. If one ignored the predictions of general relativity, the position that
one calculated would be wrong by several miles!
Newton’s laws of motion put an end to the idea of absolute position in space. The theory of relativity gets rid of
absolute time. Consider a pair of twins. Suppose that one twin goes to live on the top of a mountain while the
other stays at sea level. The first twin would age faster than the second. Thus, if they met again, one would be
older than the other. In this case, the difference in ages would be very small, but it would be much larger if one
of the twins went for a long trip in a spaceship at nearly the speed of light. When he returned, he would be
much younger than the one who stayed on earth. This is known as the twins paradox, but it is a paradox only if
one has the idea of absolute time at the back of one’s mind. In the theory of relativity there is no unique
absolute time, but instead each individual has his own personal measure of time that depends on where he is
and how he is moving.
So it had nothing to do with the clock at the top of the tower traveling faster but that the clock at the bottom as nearer a massive body which caused time to slow. And just I thought, the astronaut would age less.
Hawking is still a genius and all is right with the world. Except undergrounder, you need to quote from now on. Your paraphrasing privileges have been revoked.
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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undergrounder
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,267
Loc: NSW
Last seen: 11 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Scale and the 5th dimension... [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8376425 - 05/08/08 03:28 AM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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 I enjoyed my paraphrasing priveleges... it made me feel smarter than i am..
I was leaving out the gravity thing specifically to make it relevant to the space ship example, which was you guys' example, although like i said earlier I was always referring to the gravitational effect.
Anyway i realised i was mixing the two up with that example after i wrote it (at 4am last night), and was coming back right now to clear it up and lo and behold you smart cookies were already on it. Go team 
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RIP
Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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