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 recycledsoul
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 53
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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why do we watch people living on tV instead of actully living. wake up from the dream and you will stop suffering from it
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Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy
listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable
just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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 Veritas
 
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 8,400
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
That is your perception, not the fact of the matter. There is no such thing as "inherently" degrading, as you can see from the definition of the word. Those women are actresses taking part in a performance...why should this mean anything about them as individuals, much less about women in general? Sounds like projection to me, sir.
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around? After all, you serve no other purpose than to bring them their food & refill their damn water glass...you must be submissive and servile all night long. How degrading! Everyone can see that your inherent worth as a human being has been reduced, that your dignity has been compromised, and your value forever lowered.
Viewing pornography may influence individuals to view women as sex toys, with no purpose beyond fulfilling men's sexual fantasies. It could also been seen for the entertaining, unrealistic portrayal that it is, and not globalized to the entire female population. YOU may have been influenced to view women as having less dignity/worth because pornography exists, but this is a reflection of your choices about what it means, and not a direct causation.
Edited by Veritas (05/06/08 02:45 PM)
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WordlessNature
kšatrīya
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 255
Loc: SoCal
Last seen: 11 hours, 47 minutes
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 Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8369379 - 05/06/08 03:35 PM |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
That is your perception, not the fact of the matter. There is no such thing as "inherently" degrading, as you can see from the definition of the word. Those women are actresses taking part in a performance...why should this mean anything about them as individuals, much less about women in general? Sounds like projection to me, sir.
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around? After all, you serve no other purpose than to bring them their food & refill their damn water glass...you must be submissive and servile all night long. How degrading! Everyone can see that your inherent worth as a human being has been reduced, that your dignity has been compromised, and your value forever lowered.
Viewing pornography may influence individuals to view women as sex toys, with no purpose beyond fulfilling men's sexual fantasies. It could also been seen for the entertaining, unrealistic portrayal that it is, and not globalized to the entire female population. YOU may have been influenced to view women as having less dignity/worth because pornography exists, but this is a reflection of your choices about what it means, and not a direct causation.
Hats off.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 9,162
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
The intent of pornography is clearly to stimulate male sexual desire - it is not art. Nobody views porno because of its aesthetic beauty or enticing story-line.
I disagree. Aesthetics definitely have their place in pornographic filmmaking.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 8,400
Loc: PNW
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Yes, I've seen some beautifully-composed, artistic pornographic films. They are more the exception than the rule, as they tend to be big-budget films by a few top adult directors, but not every X-rated film is shot in a seedy motel room under blindingly-bright lights.
Andrew Blake has created some highly-aesthetic adult films, probably with an eye towards the growing female market for well-made porn. 
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learningtofly
Stranger
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 2,079
Last seen: 10 hours, 35 minutes
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The argument for porn being degrading is only somewhat valid when dealing with specifically heterosexual porn in which the male is the dominant role.
Someone said sucking dick is degrading? How is that degrading? Giving someone pleasure is not degrading.
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GnuBobo said:
You're a stupid hippie. That's my point.
Edited by learningtofly (05/06/08 04:14 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,201
Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8369547 - 05/06/08 04:13 PM |
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Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
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Eat me. Grrrrrr...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 19,908
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
Yes you can think that but you will just be pleasing your self importance. In other words how is deciding for others any of your business?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
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OrgoneConclusion
Thinker
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 6,465
Loc: Not gardening
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Quote:
Yes you can think that but you will just be pleasing your self importance. In other words how is deciding for others any of your business?
Are you trying to take all the fun out of being human?
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I am not an actor, I merely play one on TV.
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Rahz
Spore Viewer
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 1,724
Last seen: 14 minutes, 50 seconds
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I'd say the porn industry is mainly driven either by single people who would rather be having sex, or by people who have relationships, but don't know how to fully connect with their partners.
At the same time, I don't judge the people involved, and honor their right to explore reality in the way they see fit. People go through stages in life, and girls (and guys) who are attracted to porn are learning lessons about themselves in the process. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be a porn star, a representation of their search for freedom. Perhaps they are hungry for money, and want to know what it feels like to be powerful. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be used by men, a representation of low self esteem. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be degraded in some way?
I cheer them on for searching for freedom, I honor them for their search to understand themselves, even if to be degraded. I honor the porn addicts, searching for truth in their inspired hand jobs.
I get the idea that these women have lost respect for men, but on a higher level, it's a learning process, and I like to think that it takes a lot of strength to reach for independence and not settle for leaving their curiosity unexamined, despite whatever problems they may have.
Maybe there are some happy fulfilled porn stars out there, but I'd guess that the majority feel degraded in some way, and in that sense porn is degrading. But it's a choice, so how bad can it be?
>>>>Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
Seems perfectly nice to me.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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daytripper23
Wanker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,308
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371426 - 05/06/08 11:27 PM |
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Etymology of Pornography: 1857, "description of prostitutes," from Fr. pornographie, from Gk. pornographos "(one) writing of prostitutes," from porne "prostitute," originally "bought, purchased"
It might easily be argued that life is sex and sex is life. Considering this, the last thing that art is, is our existence so explicitly demonstrated. One way of seeing it: pornography is "literal art".
It is not just a matter of showing skin, or sexual expression, (although sexuality is of course necessary).
There is plenty of sexual art out there that is awesome, (say, Dali!). The difference between this and pornography though, is that pornography is explicitly geared to getting you off. When I say, "thats not art, its pornography" it is the subjective determination that the expression has crossed the line between art and wanking material.
Looking at it this way, I would not consider all "porn movies" pornography. But I would consider the vast majority of them to be. (who gives a shit about plot eh?) Pretty much all the porn on the internet is something I would consider in this light to be pornography. What I am trying to impress, is that the word pornography is more a matter of context than simply how hardcore it is.
And I think the context is derogatory.
That said though, it is ridiculous to call pornography immoral, or have social movements against it. Its a matter of aesthetics.
Edited by daytripper23 (05/07/08 12:27 AM)
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MushmanTheManic
AverageFrustrated Chump
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,220
Last seen: 2 days, 13 hours
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371516 - 05/07/08 12:13 AM |
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I try to analyze an aspect of pornography, using a position taken by some feminists no less, and suddenly I'm a misogynists that thinks women are worthless. Yikes!
To be clear, I was never discussing "women in general." I'm only concerned with the women in pornography. Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you threw into my argument. Projection, indeed.
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This is a signature.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 5,198
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The discussion is on the question presented, and I fail to see how valid a presumption that porn is exclusivly a male-consumed product affects the discussion?
The question was, does porn degrade women? Course now the poster changed it to: does porn degrade women in porn, but whatever.
WHy does it matter whether their is an exclusive consumption of porn by men?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 2,774
Last seen: 13 hours, 27 minutes
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by.
I've heard this a lot from Marxists, Feminists, and Marxist-Feminists. Although I'm not a Marxist, this does seem like a valid criticism.
This is my major criticism of it as well, although I also agree with Veritas on many points. I think that it's possible to make pornography that is not degrading, but that the capitalist market influences production values so heavily that what is created is mostly a load of cheesy, more or less degrading schlock.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 2,774
Last seen: 13 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371600 - 05/07/08 12:35 AM |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
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fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 19,990
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
Please, this is nonsense. Did you know that having a dick inside a woman gives the woman sexual pleasure? 
Isn't the man in pornography simply the means to the woman's sexual pleasure, thereby making the man equally as "inherently degraded"? You qualify that the women are clearly submissive, so essentially who is on top determines which one is being degraded and used? 
Human beings form relationships with each other. The nature of that relationship is dependent upon the ways in which the individuals choose to relate. You are proposing the idea that if two (or more  ) individuals choose to interact with each other in a manner that only exists on one level, simply for mutual sexual pleasure, one of the individuals is being degraded. Once more, this is nonsense! 
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Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up 
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
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fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 19,990
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 days, 6 hours
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you thre w into my argument. Projection, indeed.
It was clearly implied in your suggestion that a woman being fucked in pornography is being degraded. The idea that engaging in an action lowers the character or quality of an individual is a judgment being placed by the observer, unless the individual themselves feel as though engaging in said action diminishes who they are.
You've put forth the idea that a woman who takes a cock inherently has their character and quality as an individual diminished if the man doing so receives sexual satisfaction from doing so and the act of sex is the extent of their relationship. It isn't projection; it is inherent within your assertion.
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Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
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 Chronic777
Before "I Am"
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 2,624
Loc: Emptiness
Last seen: 18 seconds
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Its true actually, if it was gay porn, is one man being degraded and the other not simply because one is on the receiving end of the cock?
In the end i think men are degrading towards women in general, the words slut, slag, slapper, whore are thrown around alot, i don't see them being used as often towards men. Although its also natural for a man to want a "clean" girl, someone who hasnt been round the block, its just the way it is.
Some girls seem to even like being degraded during sex.
I still think the only thing porn degrades is the sexual act itself, neither the man or the woman.
Ultimately the only thing that degrades anything is our ignorant judgemental perception.
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"Now I have become totally empty"
Bodhidharma slapped him immediately and said, "Now go and throw this emptiness also!"
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WhiskeyClone
Below the bottomline
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 11,888
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Last seen: 5 hours, 19 minutes
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
No, not absolutely. It is relative to how you view yourself. I spent a year cleaning up after sloppy rich people, rectifying their complaints and scrubbing particles of their shit out of toilets. I kept a good attitude, never felt degraded or downtrodden. It was a time in my life when I really liked who I was, and obviously that had nothing to do with my duties.
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-oOo-You are not what you think you are-oOo-
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Chronic777
Before "I Am"
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 2,624
Loc: Emptiness
Last seen: 18 seconds
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
No, not absolutely. It is relative to how you view yourself. I spent a year cleaning up after sloppy rich people, rectifying their complaints and scrubbing particles of their shit out of toilets. I kept a good attitude, never felt degraded or downtrodden. It was a time in my life when I really liked who I was, and obviously that had nothing to do with my duties.
I find the most humbling of jobs to be the best, i work in a music studio and do a bit of everything, including cleaning up & scrubbing a toilet is quite therapeutic. I also record bands and setup sounds for weddings & parties (just to feed my ego so you don't think im a scrubber!) its nice doing it all and i would never think to employ a cleaner because i'm above it or too holy to clean up dried on shit.
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"Now I have become totally empty"
Bodhidharma slapped him immediately and said, "Now go and throw this emptiness also!"
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