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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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are you for real or are you just trolling like Seuss said?
Hydrogen is the exact same fuel as in oxyhydrogen or whatever
Read the other thread for why you can't get more from burning the hydrogen than you spend splitting the water.
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 makaveli8x8
Stranger
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 6,761
Last seen: 4 hours, 7 minutes
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 Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8316477 - 04/22/08 09:19 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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ive kind of read through everything but i havn't figuer out if anyone is dening or approving that hydrogen generators will improve gas milage of a car?
and one more question for the hydrogen torch are any other gases needed to run it? or is only hydrogen needed?
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  We were sent to hell for eternity  Ø h®
We play on earth to pass the time 
Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
makaveli8x8 said:
ive kind of read through everything but i havn't figuer out if anyone is dening or approving that hydrogen generators will improve gas milage of a car?
and one more question for the hydrogen torch are any other gases needed to run it? or is only hydrogen needed?
to your second question, hydrogen is the fuel. Generally the reduced species is the fuel, arbitrarily, as oxygen, a powerful oxidizer, is present in the atmosphere. So Hydrogen is needed as is oxygen, in this case. The electrolysis of water produces both, though you could just burn hydrogen in atmospheric air.
as to the first, I specifically asked this guy, and he claimed that he'd make a perpetual motion machine, so yeah, I am denying a hydrogen generator will improve mileage, if you use gas to power the hydrolysis. In this application, however; it seems a battery is the power, so speaking of mileage isn't really relevant. What is relevant is the imposibility of the claim: that the burning of hydrogen w/ O2 will produce enough energy to fuel enough electrolytic actiivty to continue the same degree of lysis ( (perpetual motion). and then to also power the car (perpetual motion+1)
You can't get more than you start with, so you can't get more energy out of o2 and H2 to water then you spend going from h20 to o2 and h2. I can't believe this is seriously being discussed... this is a simple concept. You push a boulder up a hill, when it rolls down, it only releases as much energy as you put into it, and you'll never extract all that energy, or anything close.
Just the fact that the proponents have invented, or used tradenames, to obfuscate their claims should be a big alarm.
If you simply use a battery to split the hydrogen, sure you'll save gas, but this is far from perpetual motion, and may or may not be worthwhile. And why would you want on board electrolysis? Wouldn't it be better to reap higher efficiency by large plants and then refuel from them?
But in the end, you're just shifting the burden to power plants to power the electrolysis. If you had cheap energy fine, but this isn't what's being discussed.
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 DieCommie
Ally
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 7,655
Loc: The Union
Last seen: 9 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8316694 - 04/22/08 10:21 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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If you simply use a battery to split the hydrogen, sure you'll save gas, but this is far from perpetual motion, and may or may not be worthwhile.
No, you will consume more gas. The power in the battery comes from the gas. If you place a load on the battery, you get a load on your alternator, and then a load on your engine.
You can either make the hydrogen at home using the power plant, or on board your car using the gas. The second option is completely un-feasible w/gasoline and will never, ever happen.
edit- but you, john, know all this. I know this, 95% of the people here know this. I dont know what it is about mushrooms that makes people believe in magic.. I think they take the magic part of 'magic mushrooms' to literally. But it is mildly amusing.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
Edited by DieCommie (04/22/08 10:31 PM)
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buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva
Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 328
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Commie an alternator uses about .5 hp off your engine so say you have a 100 horsepower engine thats .5% of your engine power but you get a 10% power gain from having a 3 liter per min hho electrolysis cell being injected straight into the intake. Also cells will reduce gas mileage by 30% on average. Go to youtube there are thousands of people on there with these installed in their vehicles you just gotta be willing to look and then disseminate from there.
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“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T
“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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I was talking about the case where the electrolysis was powered by the battery in toto, like an electric car, as a supplement to the gas engine. Doubt you'd get far, but that's what I meant by it. Doesn't really make sense though to talk about gas mileage though when you're talking about a totally water powered car. Kinda butchered it coming out though.
About the magic mushroom crowd, I'm pretty sure it's selection bias/third variable thingies. Hippies like to believe the man is suppresing their free energy, which is probably true, but not in this case.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 6,761
Last seen: 4 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8317567 - 04/23/08 03:14 AM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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thats what i was getting at with my post, i kind of assume your engine doesn't use even close to the amount of energy the gasoline provides, thus your wasteing energy all the time. Not to mention when you come to stops, your car is just rolling but your engine is still turning ontop of the free energy from the roll.
so all this energy gets put to some good use
i think another key to hydrogen is harnessing all the possible electricity you can, i imagine if you put solar panels along with brakeing generators, as well as some kind of better storage device you could come close to not needing gasoline...or at the least increase your running time alot. For example if you could produce hydrogen with solar panels all day and have it stored somehow.
the problem is im not sure if a current cars and trucks can run on pure hydrogen anyone know? would someone crack their engine block running striaght hydrogen?
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We were sent to hell for eternity Øh®
We play on earth to pass the time
Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,013
Loc: my room
Last seen: 15 days, 11 hours
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Quote:
buddhahoodlum said:
an alternator uses about .5 hp off your engine so say you have a 100 horsepower engine thats .5% of your engine power but you get a 10% power gain from having a 3 liter per min hho electrolysis cell being injected straight into the intake
If you invest 0.5 HP off your engine into electrolysis, you CAN NOT get more than a 0.5 HP equivalent in H2 and O2 gas out of it. In reality probably substantially less due to efficiency losses.
This is called the law of the conservation of energy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy .
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The Rich Jerk
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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nah, I was talking about a simple battery powering the electrolysis in a car in addition to a gas engine. That's what I meant in the post diecommie questioned. Of course that battery, if used, could gain you fuel efficiency, but the overall efficiency isn't some leap forward. This presupposes you have a cheap source of power for the batter (i.e. not electrolysis) and that your battery would last more than a mile.
Yeah, regenerative breaking systems are cool. I beleive that's how the commercially available hybrids work now. I don't know if there's any reason to deal w/ electrolysis when you could just have a simple electric motor hooked up to the transmission appropriatly, and forgo gas storage and stuff like that which has a habit of exploding and killing people, let alone the storage problems and energy lost to compression.
as in example below
At least gasoline just burns in most circumstances; if you're not in an action movie you've got some time to get out of the damn car.
I don't think I'd really want to be riding in a car w/ a tank of hydrogen and oxygen on board in sufficient quantities.
Your idea w/ solar panels is fine if you can generate enough electricity, but why not just use that to power a house, or at best run an electric engine supplementing the car? And my understanding is that its pretty expensive to generate enough electricity to power a house via solar, let alone run a car, and this presumes you've got the climate for it.
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buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva
Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 328
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8318508 - 04/23/08 12:06 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Believe what you want Anno but the results speak for themselves. This gas can even melt tungsten which has a melting point of 6000c name one torch that can do that besides hho gas. You also have to install a efie sensor to fool your oxygen sensor otherwise it will start to pump more fuel into the intake since it sees all of that extra oxygen in the hho. I'm not claiming free energy yet but I am claiming that this is way cleaner energy. For every 1 liter of water you put into your cell you get out 1800 liters of hho gas you do the math and then get back to me on that one Anno.
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“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T
“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla
Edited by buddhahoodlum (04/23/08 03:09 PM)
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 17,687
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Since you are so big on Wiki...
I found this little gem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Scientific_fraud
Quote:
An adaptation of this scam purports a traditional internal combustion engine electrolysis system hybrid. Marketing of this scam typically takes the form of "run your car on water". The promoters often claim that hydrocarbons such as gasoline can be combusted significantly more efficiently when hydrogen or a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen derived from electrolysis is combined with it. This scam most commonly takes the form of an engine modification which is purported to dramatically increase fuel efficiency sometimes described as hydrogen fuel enhancement. The process begins with the energy in the primary fuel combusting to produce kinetic motion. The some of the kinetic motion is converted to electricity with an energy loss. The electricity used by the engine and associated systems. The engine modification is an electrolysis system that siphons off some of the engines electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively low efficiency. The hydrogen or mixture of hydrogen and oxygen is then feed into the engine along with the fuel creating in effect a hydrogen/gasoline fuel mixture. The promoters of these frauds claim that the efficiency of the engine is then dramatically increased through better combustion. In a well designed engine nearly all the fuel is combusted regardless of added hydrogen or oxygen. Many of the proponents go on to argue that there are other secondary effects that result in dramatically better efficiency. This is unrealistic since the efficiency of an internal combustion engine is fundamentally governed by the upper threshold of its operating temperature as described by the Carnot cycle. All non-Carnot efficiency losses are small in modern engines. The engine modification system can not offer a measurable benefit for a well designed engine based on the thermodynamic considerations discussed above. If can be expected that the modified engine will be less efficient due to the increased and unnecessary complexity system and added weight.
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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 16,838
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: water torch [Re: trendal]
#8318796 - 04/23/08 01:30 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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(note to self, be nice)
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Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (04/23/08 01:49 PM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
buddhahoodlum said:
Believe what you want Anno but the results speak for themselves. This gas can even melt tungsten which has a melting point of 6000c name one torch that can do that besides hho gas.
From the looks of it, all the common alkanes from methane to heptane in oxygen, acetylene in oxygen.
So actually, what torch can't do that? And what common gas fuel can't do that?
But more importantly, what does it matter?
Edited by johnm214 (04/23/08 02:48 PM)
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
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Re: water torch [Re: Annom]
#8319064 - 04/23/08 02:30 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Annom said:
I don't understand what's so special about the torch? He does mix water with gas so that the water vaporizes first and the torch itself doesn't become hot, while the burning gas is hot after all water is vaporized?
I don't believe his torch is running on pure water, same for his car. I need more than just a video to believe that we can get energy out of H2O.
His torch is running on water, and if he's using a magnesium/aluminium electrode catalyst (It's not strictly a catalyst, I am told. Although it seems to work like a catalyst as far as I can tell, unless the initial electrical charge to start the water cracking counts as the catalyst) then it won't need much power at all to start the water vaporisation.
HHO gas, when it comes to welding, is safer than using oxyacetylene as it's an explosive mixture, stored in metal gas canisters. The potential for someone to have a hot welding torch, or molten slag breach the gas canister is there. With the HHO generator, the fuel is stored as water, which is really inert when it comes to all fires except for thermite (which does vaporise water) induced.
HHO flames, whilst not being as hot as oxyacetylene flames, don't need to be. It really quickly oxidises the metal, allowing one to cut/weld in the same time, or less.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva
Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 328
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Visionary your right on about the flame not being as hot as oxyacetylene at first. The flame starts out at 250F and then rapidly rises as soon as you put a substrate in front of it. You can hold your hand right next to the torch flame without touching it and you won't burn your hand a bit. It's been theorized that the reason for the odd occurrences in this gas is because it is a electrically charged gas cluster that draws energy in from the zpe field when it is created much similar to Ken Shoulders EVO Object research. I've even seen a experiment done by scarecrowlabs on youtube where he puts a voltmeter connected to the steel plate he is welding with hho gas and it conducts a electrical charge across the plate from the gas coming out of the torch pretty freaken awesome. Also the only emissions you get from this gas is water the same damn thing you put in. They use it alot for glassblowing now because it gives such a purer looking glass compared to mapp gas. I'm almost positive that other gases will not conduct electricity through plates so ya this stuff is the shiat.
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“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T
“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla
Edited by buddhahoodlum (04/23/08 03:23 PM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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show us some reasoning or papers which demonstrate how you get more energy from the combustion of hydrogen than you spend in splitting the water. Otherwise, so what? Why are you talking about crap like temperature when it doesn't matter?
Seriously, show some evidence, explain why you're not violating thermodynamic laws, or why those laws are wrong.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Annom said:
I don't understand what's so special about the torch? He does mix water with gas so that the water vaporizes first and the torch itself doesn't become hot, while the burning gas is hot after all water is vaporized?
I don't believe his torch is running on pure water, same for his car. I need more than just a video to believe that we can get energy out of H2O.
His torch is running on water, and if he's using a magnesium/aluminium electrode catalyst (It's not strictly a catalyst, I am told. Although it seems to work like a catalyst as far as I can tell, unless the initial electrical charge to start the water cracking counts as the catalyst) then it won't need much power at all to start the water vaporisation.
HHO gas, when it comes to welding, is safer than using oxyacetylene as it's an explosive mixture, stored in metal gas canisters. The potential for someone to have a hot welding torch, or molten slag breach the gas canister is there. With the HHO generator, the fuel is stored as water, which is really inert when it comes to all fires except for thermite (which does vaporise water) induced.
HHO flames, whilst not being as hot as oxyacetylene flames, don't need to be. It really quickly oxidises the metal, allowing one to cut/weld in the same time, or less.
by definition a catalyst lowers the energy barrier needed for the reaction without being consumed, thus the electrode/electricity thingy isn't a catalyst as it consumes the electricity and doesn't lower the energy to the transition state.
And while the metal may be a catalyst for all I know, it doesn't matter, none of this matters. A catalyst doesn't change the equilibrium or energy change from product to reactant. It doesn't matter. You still can't get what you put in. And what does vaproisation have to do w/ anything?
And what do you mean the flame oxidizes the metal allowing you to cut/weld quicker? What does this have to do w/ anything, and I doubt you'd want your torch to be oxidizing your metal. Oxidizing the metal would make it harder to melt, rather than easier, as well as dramatically changing the charecter of the substance, something I'm sure you don't wantt. Perhaps some applications would call for an oxide layer on the surface of the metal, but this is different than oxidizing a whole chunk of the metal to the detriment of its structural integrity.
And to claim the torch is running on water is like saying my car runs on plankton.
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buddhahoodlum
Bodhisattva
Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 328
Loc: Buddhahood
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8319684 - 04/23/08 04:57 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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B.E.S.T Korea Company enough said.
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“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T
“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
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Re: water torch [Re: johnm214]
#8319689 - 04/23/08 04:59 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
And what do you mean the flame oxidizes the metal allowing you to cut/weld quicker? What does this have to do w/ anything, and I doubt you'd want your torch to be oxidizing your metal. Oxidizing the metal would make it harder to melt, rather than easier, as well as dramatically changing the charecter of the substance, something I'm sure you don't wantt. Perhaps some applications would call for an oxide layer on the surface of the metal, but this is different than oxidizing a whole chunk of the metal to the detriment of its structural integrity.
Ahh, right so. I'll go with
Quote:
the reason for the odd occurrences in this gas is because it is a electrically charged gas cluster that draws energy in from the zpe field when it is created much similar to Ken Shoulders EVO Object research.
I havent' done any welding with HHO gas, so I wouldn't know. I do like spot welding though, so this would be the best of both worlds. Oh, and not explosive!
It does run on water, an electrode of aluminium and magnesium, with an electrical charge to start it off, will make hydrogen and oxygen bubble off, and it also produces an electrical current in the electrodes. see US patent 5089107 - Bi-polar auto electrolytic hydrogen generator
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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bmiles
artist
Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,244
Loc: on the left side
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Re: water torch [Re: norml840]
#8319699 - 04/23/08 05:01 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
norml840 said:
the oil giants will take care of him. keep your eyes on him. he and his technology will soon fade away.
My thoughts exactly.
But damn, this is amazing.
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Never go with a hippy to a second location.
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