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 mikebart101
Catcher in the Rye
 
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 550
Loc: New England
Last seen: 1 day, 17 hours
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 The Con of Enlightenment
#8200040 - 03/27/08 04:05 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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As I crawl down this path, like all of us, I have come to a revelation.
Total enlightenment is suicide of the self. It is the process in which one consciously destroys his/her ego. There is no more identity left at the end of the path. To know all and be in touch with all, you must sacrifice individuality. That is the price one must pay. Not in a physical sense (who knows maybe you just vanish into thin air at this point) but in a universal, human, mental sense; there is no more you, or the ability to even recognize what you were before this point; you will simply exist; nothing more.
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-"You wish to see the frontier?"
-"Yes sir, before it's gone."
Edited by mikebart101 (03/27/08 04:06 AM)
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DimensionX
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,457
Last seen: 10 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: mikebart101]
#8200048 - 03/27/08 04:22 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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If your complete, then your dead. It would be ultimate boredom to remain in that state. There's nothing left to learn and nothing left to do.
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Pilfering through that sordid catalogue you call your mind
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fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 20,453
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 21 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: DimensionX]
#8200066 - 03/27/08 04:41 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said:
It would be ultimate boredom to remain in that state.
Doubtful. Boredom is an experience that manifests when an individual does not fully accept the nature of reality in the moment (it does not fufill their expectations). If an individual did not have a sense of identity, then there would be no association of the perception of reality with an emotional experience such as boredom.
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Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up 
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
 
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fireworks_god
Sexy ButtMcDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 20,453
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 21 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: mikebart101]
#8200069 - 03/27/08 04:44 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mikebart101 said:
Total enlightenment is suicide of the self. It is the process in which one consciously destroys his/her ego.
Its hard to say what concept you refer to when you say "total enlightenment", as it is very ambiguous, yet surely if you were referring to the evolution of consciousness, you would not be using language such as "suicide" and "destruction". It seems pretty evident that, whatever you mean when you say "total enlightenment", you view it as a threat to yourself.
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Meet me in outer space
We could spend the night;
watch the earth come up
I've grown tired of that place;
won't you come with me?
We could start again.
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 Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,526
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 32 seconds
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LOL con???
The teachers tell you that this self must be thrown away there's no "con" its up to you if you want it or not.
Yes you throw away this perception of "yourself", but this perception of yourself is not real, it is why we all suffer internally struggling with ourselves and our identities, we identify with objective reality, we all know theres something more but we dont know what...this personality/ego is just a false impression of separateness that we hold to be true, thus we come into suffering.
Humans beings have been designed so they can look within and get rid of this false impression/delusion, getting rid of it means you see reality which is bliss, joy, unconditional love & compassion for all.
This is why (almost) all the prophets taught selflessness, getting rid of selfishness and finding the love that lies beneath it all, the unconditional love of god.
"This is such a con! I want my misery back!!!"
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Know Thyself
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: mikebart101]
#8201636 - 03/27/08 01:51 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
mikebart101 said:
As I crawl down this path, like all of us, I have come to a revelation.
Total enlightenment is suicide of the self. It is the process in which one consciously destroys his/her ego. There is no more identity left at the end of the path. To know all and be in touch with all, you must sacrifice individuality. That is the price one must pay. Not in a physical sense (who knows maybe you just vanish into thin air at this point) but in a universal, human, mental sense; there is no more you, or the ability to even recognize what you were before this point; you will simply exist; nothing more.
That's what "they" say. Good luck with all that. Hey you might be the first.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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publicenemy1
Waiting At Terrapin Station
Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 982
Loc: Nor Jers
Last seen: 9 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: mikebart101]
#8201688 - 03/27/08 02:11 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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This thought pops into my head from time to time and it's a little bit of a scary thought. But than remind yourself that it won't matter because you are anything and everything... real freedom and control over yourself... which is everything. Being in "total enlightenment" is a full of serenity, peace of mind, eternal intelligence, ultimate truth, bliss, etc. let's think about that trade off for a second. In the end I feel like people psyche themselves out because attachment is suffering... control and enjoy the ride, it's easier when you don't want the control. Becoming enlightened is like denying everything you've ever learned, it's pretty hard to accept a completely new reality. "The truth may not always be easy." Read the Allegory of the Cave by Plato if anyone is interested in believing one thing your entire life and than being in complete freedom and realizing truth for yourself. If you want to be in nothing but bliss that is up to you, you just gotta learn to accept it.
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Be Here Now
and be
Chillified to the max...
.jpeg)
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Tchan909
plagiarist
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 3,609
Loc: SF Bay Area
Last seen: 10 hours, 7 minutes
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Buddha had enough of an ego to realize that people were listening to him. Didn't he?
I don't know if "enlightenment" is really a concrete state of being, or if it's just an ongoing goal to strive toward, a kind of carrot on a stick to make sure you stay aware. Either way, I personally don't see that enlightenment needs to arise from a destructive process, much less through the destruction of a concept invented by Sigmund Freud to categorize habituated social behavior.
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not necessarily stoned, but... beautiful.
The Albert Hofmann Collection
Doctors and other wizards are forbidden under Martian Law!
Edited by Tchan909 (03/27/08 03:04 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Tchan909]
#8201886 - 03/27/08 03:28 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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It really can be ripped away, like a table cloth from a set table.
More like spooky magic than destruction imo.
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thedudenj
Sra_Sephiroth0
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 9,214
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ha ha and true selflessness isnt really cause you dont have an ego, its cause you have a strong enough ego that you would endure acting against it for others
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""You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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publicenemy1
Waiting At Terrapin Station
Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 982
Loc: Nor Jers
Last seen: 9 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Tchan909]
#8202343 - 03/27/08 05:14 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
I don't know if "enlightenment" is really a concrete state of being, or if it's just an ongoing goal to strive toward, a kind of carrot on a stick to make sure you stay aware.
Part true, part false... The state of being is always in your control so once you reach enlightenment doesn't mean your enlightened forever. After you reach it, it's about maintaining your awareness, consciousness, and presence.
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Be Here Now
and be
Chillified to the max...
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thedudenj
Sra_Sephiroth0
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 9,214
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Quote:
publicenemy1 said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said:
I don't know if "enlightenment" is really a concrete state of being, or if it's just an ongoing goal to strive toward, a kind of carrot on a stick to make sure you stay aware.
Part true, part false... The state of being is always in your control so once you reach enlightenment doesn't mean your enlightened forever. After you reach it, it's about maintaining your awareness, consciousness, and presence.
yeah its something like that good way to say it
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""You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: thedudenj]
#8203209 - 03/27/08 08:08 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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mikebart,
There was no "you" to even begin with.
What do you value about being an individual? What is special about being set apart from the rest of existence?
Once you are enlightened, there is no guarantee that you will stay that way. It is possible for the ego to creep back.
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Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203343 - 03/27/08 08:32 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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DUDE I DONT EXIST.OG MY FUCKING GOD! HELP WHAT SHOULD I DO, I DON'T EXIST.
I believe Descartes solved this one for us.
You exist as long as you exist. The fact that I will die, does not mean I don't exist. I think I'll call you on that fallacy Appleorange.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Mr_Spliff]
#8203380 - 03/27/08 08:38 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," he meant that we can prove our existence by the fact that our thinking exists. He concluded that because we are thinking, we are really there, existing.
I would conclude the opposite: "I think, therefore I am not." As long as mind and body are not together, we get lost and we cannot really say that we are here.
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Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203423 - 03/27/08 08:48 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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"Stolen Concept
Using what you are trying to disprove. That is, requiring the truth of something for your proof that it is false. For example, using science to show that science is wrong. Or, arguing that you do not exist, when your existence is clearly required for you to be making the argument."
You are trying to disprove I, by saying "I...", refering to you, your body, your experience of you, and then saying "do not exist", meaning you could have never made the statment. Like the grandfather paradox in time travel theory.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Mr_Spliff]
#8203470 - 03/27/08 08:58 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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"I" is a reference point Spliff.
Even when a person destroys their ego, they still use the word "I". But it does not come with the same connotation.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203486 - 03/27/08 09:00 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Mr Spliff.
This video will you give you a better understanding as to what not having an ego is like.
Just try to tune out the cheesy synths and stereotypical guru image.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203551 - 03/27/08 09:11 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Icelander doesn't have an ego. I pawned it to pay the rent.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203560 - 03/27/08 09:12 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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1. I think its rather egotistical to think I have never experienced ego loss. It was beutiful.
2. Dreams are only real as long as they last. The same applies to me, and you. So when this dream is over, can I say "I do not exist".
3. Einstein said something along the lines of, everything should be made as simple as it can be, but no simpler.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Mr_Spliff]
#8203622 - 03/27/08 09:22 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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1. Whose doing the thinking here, me or you?
2. Nope, your ass be dead.
3. I have no idea what Einstein meant by that. I just know that he owned math.
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Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203684 - 03/27/08 09:31 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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1. As far as I know for certain, I am. In the context that I am my body, brain, mind, and observer working in synch. I know you exist to a certain degree, weather as a figment of my imagination or not, you still exist in some form or other.
2. I agree (check)
3. What I meant by quoting Al is this, there is no need to go 200 years into the future, or into infinity for that matter, and say you see I wont make a diffrence, I must not exist. That is extreme.
Now unless you read that shit somewhere and jumped on the bandwagon, I have no clue how anyone came up with "I don't exist."
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 1,711
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: Mr_Spliff]
#8203763 - 03/27/08 09:45 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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I'll be upfront, I'm not enlightened, I have not reached Nirvana. So I'm not going to continue talking about something that I have never experienced first-hand. I'm not the best candidate for arguing about this.
Redgreenvines is a really wise poster on here and I suggest that you talk to him more than anybody about this concept if you want to know more.
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allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 345
Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203777 - 03/27/08 09:47 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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The concept? Hmm... tardy indeed.
--------------------
Guess what?; You...
A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
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Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: The Con of Enlightenment [Re: appleorange]
#8203800 - 03/27/08 09:51 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Great, now your one step further.
Just take a couple grams of shrooms, watch that clip you showed me, but don't think about it, just spend the trip quite and observe. Best way for me to retouch with the universe, it doesn't think, so to try and think your self to enlightenment won't work. But you'll know. Oh, and enlightenment is a bad term in my book, awakining I find better. Just reawakening to the truth that Is.
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allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 345
Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
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