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 danlennon3
LivingIsEasyWith EyesClosed.....
Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 8,592
Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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 Mind and Soul
#8080836 - 02/28/08 09:58 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Is it the same thing?
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"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 24,231
Loc: underbelly
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Mind and sole.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Entropymancer
Saint of Circumstance
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 5,915
Loc: PNW
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I think that's a pretty hard question to answer until someone actually substantiates the existence of a soul.
The mind may be mysterious to a degree, but we can observe the physical organ where it occurs, and see that changes in this organ (the brain) affect cognition.
Where's the soul at?
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Bufotenin
PiHKAL|TiHKAL|PCPiHKAL|Rhodium
DMT Extraction|Jungle Spice|The FASA Method
Guide to Hunting Amanita
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,648
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Observing changes within the brain does not prove the existence of the mind. It would be more accurate to describe it as "brain activity" than to claim that such activity indicates that there is more than an "organ."
This is the equivalent of someone claiming proof of the existence of the soul via demonstrating human actions such as charity, cooperation, religious practice, etc...
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there is a lot to discover about one's self, consciousness, and the inebriated states of mind without attempting to mystify what is really happening.
~~~~redgreenvines
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demius
flea-killer extrodinaire
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 27,833
Loc: Earth
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would/could you explain to me why it really matters?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,328
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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 Re: Mind and Soul [Re: demius]
#8080951 - 02/28/08 10:43 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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For the same reasons anything else does?
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 24,231
Loc: underbelly
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And that is?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,328
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Icelander]
#8081044 - 02/28/08 11:06 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Curiosity.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 24,231
Loc: underbelly
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Just wanted to hear you say it sweetness.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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danlennon3
LivingIsEasyWith EyesClosed.....
Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 8,592
Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Icelander]
#8081072 - 02/28/08 11:14 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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So if there is no such thing as a mind, how come so many people lose theirs?
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"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,328
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Icelander]
#8081078 - 02/28/08 11:15 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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Entropymancer
Saint of Circumstance
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 5,915
Loc: PNW
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Veritas]
#8081086 - 02/28/08 11:18 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Observing changes within the brain does not prove the existence of the mind. It would be more accurate to describe it as "brain activity" than to claim that such activity indicates that there is more than an "organ."
This is the equivalent of someone claiming proof of the existence of the soul via demonstrating human actions such as charity, cooperation, religious practice, etc...
You can debate the semantics all you want, but it's abundantly clear that cognition occurs in the brain. If you want to debate that, well,  .
I'm making the assumption that when a person says "mind", they are referring to the central cognitive functions of a living person. If you have a different conception of the mind, I'd like to hear it.
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Bufotenin
PiHKAL|TiHKAL|PCPiHKAL|Rhodium
DMT Extraction|Jungle Spice|The FASA Method
Guide to Hunting Amanita
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,328
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 6 hours, 48 minutes
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Quote:
I'm making the assumption that when a person says "mind", they are referring to the central cognitive functions of a living person. If you have a different conception of the mind, I'd like to hear it.
Yes.
And for for as far as we know, the cognitive functions are provided by the brain.
I see no contradiction in here.
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight
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Lion
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 3,915
Loc: The Becoming Tree
Last seen: 6 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Icelander]
#8081194 - 02/28/08 11:46 AM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Mind and sole.
Your most complete post to date. 
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"Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before."
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,648
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"Cognition" and "brain activity" are the same thing, so I do not disagree with you. In your initial post, you seemed to be saying that the mind existed, and that we could see proof of that in the activity of the brain. I was saying that the activity is all that there is, and that there was no distinction between mind and cognition as measured by brain activity.
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there is a lot to discover about one's self, consciousness, and the inebriated states of mind without attempting to mystify what is really happening.
~~~~redgreenvines
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 24,231
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
danlennon3 said:
So if there is no such thing as a mind, how come so many people lose theirs?
Hello That's a figure of speech. The real problem here is people not using theirs.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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AlteredAgain
♫²
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,829
Loc: Ңēŗế...
Last seen: 22 minutes, 7 seconds
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The soul is the planet. Life is born out of it.
The mind on the other hand is very peculiar.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 24,231
Loc: underbelly
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Do you just make this up as you go along?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 5 months, 9 days
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: Icelander]
#8081714 - 02/28/08 02:28 PM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Now you try...
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daytripper23
Wanker
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1,909
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I was just writing an essay on Gandhi's home rule last night, and this exact topic was the basis of it. Gandhi speaks of Soul force and body force, representing on one level the obvious duality of mind and matter. But the particular wording of soul-force, in the context of his essay additionally implied the duality of self and other.
soul meaning mind denotes the insubstantiality of the mind as opposed to matter-
while soul, meaning the self (as opposed to other) is the only reality one can be sure of, and so is in this way substantial while the external world is insubstantial.
Dually implied, this understanding (or rather conundrum) seemed to be the key to conceptualizing Gandhi's
ostensible paradox of passive resistence. Or at least thats what I got out of it. Gandhi says it a lot better though, you guys might want to read it.
You can find the whole book here http://www.mkgandhi.org/swarajya/coverpage.htm
The chapter I was reading was 17 on passive resistance, but I plan on eventually reading the whole thing sometime when I have the time.
note: Gandhi doesnt actually specify these dualities in the chapter as other than soul force and body force. I was just talking about what I got out of it, which was along the exact lines of the thread starter. you might not get the same idea.
Edited by daytripper23 (02/28/08 02:44 PM)
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nunyoshi
Stranger
Registered: 02/18/08
Posts: 7
Last seen: 5 months, 12 days
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Nearly every religion posits some sort of hidden, immaterial realm which exists behind the visible, physical, and material realm in which we live. Often we are supposed to be partaking in this immaterial realm because who we "really" are is defined by an immaterial, immortal soul. This immaterial realm is also treated as being higher and more important than the material one because it's the realm in which gods live and which we are destined to inhabit after our physical bodies die.
However important these beliefs may be to religious theists, there isn't any solid, verifiable evidence that even suggests any of it is true. On the contrary, everything we do know and everything we continue learn points to the conclusion that all of those claims are completely false, and instead that the following are true: life is material and natural, we don't have anything like an immaterial or immoral soul, and an immaterial, disembodied "mind" like gods are supposed to have just isn't possible.
When all available evidence points away from a particular position, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's false, but it is unreasonable to believe it.
The evidence against the claim that our minds are really immaterial and not a product of our physical brains is unequivocal. When a person's brain is stimulated, through physical implements, drugs, or magnetic fields, and put in a particular physical state, then a person's mental experience corresponds to what we know about that state. Approaching from the other direction, self-reports about particular mental experiences correspond to evidence about their brains' particular physical states. There is no reason for this to be true if our minds and mental experiences are independent of our brains; people who continue to insist otherwise offer no means for testing and verifying that claim.
All of this is true to a much more extreme degree when the brain is injured through physical trauma or certain drugs. Some destroy enough of the brain to end all mental experiences entirely. Some only go far enough to destroy or at least greatly degrade particular mental experiences like language use or particular emotions. Moreover, injuries in particular areas lead to particular changes in mental ability injury to one portion of the brain will affect language while another won't. There is no reason for any of this to happen if our minds and mental states are independent of our brains. If an immaterial mind is what does our thinking for us, then changing the brain shouldn't produce any, or at least any significant, changes in our thinking.
All of this is also true of other animals. It's not just humans whose mental states can be mapped to particular brain states, whether through deliberate manipulation or injury. Not only is the same true in other animals, but there is a high degree of consistency when it comes to which areas of the brain correspond to what sorts of mental abilities and mental states.
Furthermore, every species studied demonstrates increasing mental abilities as they grow older and their brains grow more complex, developing more neurons and more connections between neurons. If our mental capacity and mental states are immaterial and independent of the brain, there's no reason for any of this to be true. Moreover, people who believe in immaterial minds don't normally attribute this to non-human animals, yet they cannot explain how physical brains can produce mental capacity and mental states in other animals but not in humans.
All medical and scientific evidence we have points to our minds, our memories, and our personalities being products of our physical brains. This is no less natural and no less material than how our physical bodies produce other processes, like digestion. If this is true, it means that when our physical brains die then our minds, memories, and personalities will also die. Since these are what make up who "we" really are, then the death of our physical brains means the death of us as well if there is any sort of immaterial soul, it's not "us." It doesn't do our thinking, it doesnt hold our memories, and it doesn't express our personalities. This makes the existence of immaterial minds or souls irrelevant at best.
These issues also impact notions about the existence of gods with disembodied minds. Since everything we know about minds, thinking, memories, and personalities requires the existence of a physical brain as a basis, it's difficult to credit the idea that a disembodied mind without a brain is even possible. Religious theists have certainly not offered any explanation for how this would even be theoretically possible, much less provide evidence for it being an actual state of affairs. It is unlikely that such a disembodied mind exists and, therefore, that a god exists.
None of this is unequivocal proof that no gods can or do exist, nor does it prove that no religions are or can be true. It does, however, provide a strong basis for doubting that some of the most fundamental claims about gods and religions are true. Although they are not logically excluded from being true, they are excluded from being very likely true. This amount of contrary evidence makes belief unreasonable.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,648
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: nunyoshi]
#8081922 - 02/28/08 03:27 PM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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Great post! 
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there is a lot to discover about one's self, consciousness, and the inebriated states of mind without attempting to mystify what is really happening.
~~~~redgreenvines
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AlteredAgain
♫²
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 7,829
Loc: Ңēŗế...
Last seen: 22 minutes, 7 seconds
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Re: Mind and Soul [Re: nunyoshi]
#8081933 - 02/28/08 03:30 PM (10 months, 5 days ago) |
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It doesn't always make belief unreasonable, even if it is a belief in the immaterial or spirit.. it's not unreasonable if spiritual belief is applied to reflect harmony with nature.
The North American Indians never needed to build trains or erect cities. Their simple relationships with the Earth and its elements benefited them as a social entity. The question whether the invisible forces that assist them are really there matters little when its belief is used constructively to balance and be harmonious. It could be considered fluffy, but not unreasonable in this particular example.
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Veritas
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