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 OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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 Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086442 - 02/29/08 02:39 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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Tonto and the Loan Arranger...
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating! 
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8086452 - 02/29/08 02:42 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
as I don't think the difference between attachment and joy are clear cut. Moments of pure non selfish love exist but the human tendency is to become greedy for joy, IMO.
I don't follow you here...if humans were greedy for CAKE, would that mean that cake is attachment?
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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 Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,528
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 41 seconds
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Ok i never knew that sorry.
Im english so dont know as much american culture, or native american culture should i say....
I thought it was a racist comment.
But anyway i dont assume anything, i go off what i know.
I admit i try & generalise my values that i know to be true, yes, i write them down, re-read them etc...but i never assume i can capture them, i know for a fact i never can or will be able to capture them/generalise them! But that doesnt mean we should all just shutup and not try!
What if the buddha had said, fuckit i cant be bothered to write down the four noble truths or spread the word...ill keep it a secret...
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Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Chronic777]
#8086462 - 02/29/08 02:44 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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well done,
Thanks, coming from one such as yourself that makes me so proud.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Chronic777]
#8086465 - 02/29/08 02:45 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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The problem is that you are generalizing your present limitations & stating that they are true and factual for others. It IS possible to love without attachment, and I know this because I DO it. My own suffering is the early indication to me that I have allowed attachment to creep into my experience of loving, and that I need to let go and accept what is happening.
The Buddha wrote about practices which he believed would help humankind release attachment, cease grasping, and therefore stop causing themselves to suffer. IMO, they work.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086481 - 02/29/08 02:50 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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Not to mention Ellis and Keyes. And of course Epictetus.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
Edited by Icelander (02/29/08 02:50 PM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Icelander]
#8086483 - 02/29/08 02:51 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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And Epictetus.  Ha! I caught you before the ninja edit!
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086490 - 02/29/08 02:51 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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I already caught that.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086494 - 02/29/08 02:52 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
And Epictetus. Ha! I caught you before the ninja edit!
Fuck.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Icelander]
#8086503 - 02/29/08 02:53 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago) |
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I actually read "The Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha" long before I read Ellis, Keyes or Epictetus. At the time, I was deeply entrenched in neurotic suffering, and that tiny hardbound book was like a hand reaching downward to pull me out. 
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086623 - 02/29/08 03:24 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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I had the same experience of being pulled up but whoever or whatever was doing it dropped me.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
Edited by Icelander (02/29/08 03:25 PM)
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 gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 2,217
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086663 - 02/29/08 03:33 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
as I don't think the difference between attachment and joy are clear cut. Moments of pure non selfish love exist but the human tendency is to become greedy for joy, IMO.
I don't follow you here...if humans were greedy for CAKE, would that mean that cake is attachment?
No, that clearly doesn't work.
If you were instructing a group of circus performers how to balance spinning plates, you would be a good teacher to warn them that they may break a plate once in awhile. Because no one is perfect. Likewise it is a good idea to keep in mind that love is not a static experience. You don't reach love and stay there. That's all I'm saying.
Love isn't a noun its an experience, a poem its dynamic its temporal it moves. That's why the cake analogy doesn't work. Cake is just a noun.
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8086688 - 02/29/08 03:40 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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But greed is greed, and grasping is grasping. Whether we grasp after love and joy, or grasp after cake, the end result is still suffering. Eventually we no longer feel joyful, and eventually we run out of cake (or develop diabetes! ).
What I am saying is that your statement regarding the difference between joy and attachment not being clear cut doesn't make sense. The attachment is longing for the thing, grasping at the thing, not the thing itself.
Love is not attachment, joy is not attachment, cake is not attachment. Only attachment is attachment.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,528
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 41 seconds
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086699 - 02/29/08 03:42 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
The problem is that you are generalizing your present limitations & stating that they are true and factual for others. It IS possible to love without attachment, and I know this because I DO it. My own suffering is the early indication to me that I have allowed attachment to creep into my experience of loving, and that I need to let go and accept what is happening.
The Buddha wrote about practices which he believed would help humankind release attachment, cease grasping, and therefore stop causing themselves to suffer. IMO, they work.
I believe you can love with attachment , thats why i say life is attachment, yet life still is love.
(If ive ever said you cant love with attachment, i mean it as you can't unconditionally love with attachment.)
Things in life that we attach to we can feel love for, yet these things are impermanent, when the object of attachment dies, the love dies, what im saying (like buddha) is get rid of that attachment and then the love does not die!
Thankyou veritas you helped me express my veritas finally!
(im also saying that this attachment as it decreases when all mankind know how to harness it & use it (instead of using each other with attachment) then a utopian society is in very least a possibility!
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Know Thyself
Edited by Chronic777 (02/29/08 04:08 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Chronic777]
#8086709 - 02/29/08 03:44 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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You can love with attachment
Sorry but I don't think that's what she's saying at all.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,380
Loc: PNW
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Chronic777]
#8086721 - 02/29/08 03:45 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
you can't truly unconditionally love without attachment
I disagree. I think that you CAN truly unconditionally love without attachment. The key is to see love as loving, and cultivate it as a state of being, and not as something that someone else makes you feel.
This loving is NOT attached to what someone else does or is or whether they are alive or not. I still love many people and animals who are no longer living, and I think that I always will.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086753 - 02/29/08 03:52 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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It's funny how no one misunderstands hate, yet few understand the meaning of love.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086759 - 02/29/08 03:54 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Only attachment is attachment.
Where does that leave Velcro?
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating!
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,528
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 41 seconds
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Re: What do you make of love? [Re: Veritas]
#8086789 - 02/29/08 04:04 PM (9 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
you can't truly unconditionally love without attachment
I disagree. I think that you CAN truly unconditionally love without attachment. The key is to see love as loving, and cultivate it as a state of being, and not as something that someone else makes you feel.
This loving is NOT attached to what someone else does or is or whether they are alive or not. I still love many people and animals who are no longer living, and I think that I always will.
WOAH! spelling mistake...my bad, i redited lol
I was caught up in cans and cant etc...
Unconditional love is blatantly smack you round the face without attachment, it un (not) conditional (dependednt)...ie non attached.
damn bad spelling mistake to make!
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Know Thyself
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