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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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 War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends?
#8071673 - 02/26/08 09:08 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I wonder what the population of the world would be right now if there were no war, famine caused by war, and genocide on civilian population. It might get pretty crowded around here.
When human populations overcrowd disease usually thins things out. Often plague and disease are more horrible then being quickly killed in a war.
Whats really going on here?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8071761 - 02/26/08 09:35 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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You forgot about cars, sugar, alcohol and cigarettes. 
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8071769 - 02/26/08 09:38 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I didn't forget. I wanted to focus on peoples negative reactions to war.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8071786 - 02/26/08 09:43 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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If we look at other mammalian populations, we can see that overcrowding inevitably leads to violence against other members of the group. As humans are capable of organized action and strategy, that violence is sometimes elevated to the level of war.
Competition for scarce resources and madness are a potent combination! Throw in the fact that humans seem to be incapable of conceptualizing a personal relationship with groups larger than 15 individuals, and you have the catalyst for violence against strangers.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8071817 - 02/26/08 09:53 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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OK but that's not really my question. In our present state could we really manage population overgrowth without war? I don't think it's possible.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8071829 - 02/26/08 09:57 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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No, war is part of the way the human population level is limited. So is disease, so is murder, so is suicide. As much as we like to think that we are not animals, we definitely are. Animal populations experience negative effects when the demand for resources exceeds the supply.
To answer your thread title: war, genocide and starvation are neither our friends nor our enemies, they simply are. Just as gravity is neither or friend nor our enemy, but simply a natural force which we experience.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8071845 - 02/26/08 10:01 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I used to have a more negative view of war. Now I see it as a possible necessity for life. How's that for a turnaround?
Fortunately some of us realize (to some small extent), as a friend said to me, "survival is overrated".
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,379
Loc: PNW
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8071847 - 02/26/08 10:01 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Did I say that? That sounds like something I've said.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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 NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8071935 - 02/26/08 10:36 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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War is used as the primary, fear based, justification for maintaining governments that nobody believes in anymore-- to protect us from the enermy-of-the-week. The argument is that if we slacken up and stop prducing so much then Russia or China or Iraq or whoever will come over here and destroy us, so we must keep the gears of industrial production moving at an ever increasing rate. It wouldn't be all that difficult to slow the rate of population growth, but capital requires ever more bodies to grind up in the ever growing market economy. Populations do tend to peak and balance when they exist in a finite resource base. Increasingly efficient technology raises the bar, thus raising the rate of population. So creating an economy that was based on stability rather than constant growth would positively effect the rate of population expansion. Also, the Catholic Church could defintly use a slap in the face for the anti-condom garbage they're spewing. They're worse than murderers.
So, no. War is actually a factor in perpetuating the population crisis.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8071939 - 02/26/08 10:37 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Joey at work said that.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 3,681
Loc: Between
Last seen: 21 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072136 - 02/26/08 11:25 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Shoot those who want to into space !
Use the money, normally spent on war and with the rest feed, heal and support all the others left
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Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion
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 xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1,415
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 2 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072427 - 02/26/08 12:56 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Like all animals, humans have a carrying capacity of their population that determines how many of us can be around at once. Because of our technology we've increased it, but it is still there. If it wasn't war that cut us back it would just be something else, conveniently, you've mentioned starvation, but there is a problem in calling it a "friend"
While starvation does allow us to live without overpopulation, if there could be no starvation then there wouldn't be an issue if there were too many of us, concerning starvation anyway. Disease is another story.
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I want to tell you a story,
About a little man,
If I can,
A gnome named Grimble Grumble,
And little gnomes stay in their homes,
Eating, sleeping, Drinking their wine
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8072461 - 02/26/08 01:05 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
You forgot about cars, sugar, alcohol and cigarettes.
Driving and Hersheys' chocloate bars don't mix. 
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating! 
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Veritas]
#8072470 - 02/26/08 01:08 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Just as gravity is neither or friend nor our enemy
Gravity is the enemy of older women.  *Graphic naked granny picture deleted*
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating!
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072595 - 02/26/08 01:38 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Whats really going on here?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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arainbow
Hippy
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072705 - 02/26/08 02:08 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
OK but that's not really my question. In our present state could we really manage population overgrowth without war? I don't think it's possible.
NO WAY !
There are far too many people hung up on sex to allow the wide spread use of berth control to be encouraged
as long as non reproductive sex is seen as evil by a loud minority the human race will never get a handle on population with out war
It can be questioned as to wether or not the resion the U.S. has 47 millon people without health care is an effort by the ruling class to control the U.S. population without the wide spread encouragment of birth control
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072726 - 02/26/08 02:13 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In our present state could we really manage population overgrowth without war?
People have been predicting imminent doom due to population overgrowth for thousands of years.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8072870 - 02/26/08 02:44 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
In our present state could we really manage population overgrowth without war?
People have been predicting imminent doom due to population overgrowth for thousands of years.
Right and that's because of wars and such. Just think of the population explosion if all those multitude of millions had never offed each other.
Yay war.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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Irishdrunk
Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 9,817
Loc: Fuckoffityland
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8072926 - 02/26/08 02:53 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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My old friends nicks were just that........war was such a stoner.
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You ready to be fucked, man? I see you rolled your way into the semis. Dios mio, man. Liam and me, we're gonna fuck you up. Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
-Jesus
"Eight-year-olds, Dude."
-Walter
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 743
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 7 days, 13 hours
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8073070 - 02/26/08 03:24 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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According to Malthus these are absolutely necessary and are the only factors that keep the population in check (war, famine, disease). I get peeved hearing people talk about 'SAVE THE STARVING CHILDREN IN AFRICA!" It seems to me like if we let two or three generations starve to death then it would save suffering for the thousands to come. It is a very simple solution. No one needs to have more then TWO kids. That is if you want kids. I think there should be government incentives for having NO kids not the other way around (crack head from the ghetto has 4 kids so she can get well-fare). Modern medicine is a problem to. I think its stupid trying to keep people alive 15+ years after they would have naturally died. Especially if they are fat, lard ass, ignorant, convince food junkies that shop at walmart and never exercise (consumerism at its pinnacle). If you want to live to be 95 you have to work for it. Ok last thought, why save the kids born with terrible diseases. Just start over people you can have another kid. I don't think it is fair for you to decide whether or not this child lives. It is natures job to decide. Besides, if he lives (and lets assume he can have a sex life) he will be adding his bad genes to the gene pool. People need to wake the fuck up and realize how much of a fucking cancer people have become to this planet. The Taoists had it right. It's all about finding the balance baby! Anyway I'm done ranting. This is just a few things psychedelics have shown me. If anyone read this giant block of text then hopefully the message sticks and I can make a difference, no matter how insignificant it may be.
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#8073456 - 02/26/08 05:01 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
According to Malthus
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8073495 - 02/26/08 05:12 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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You have to do better than that.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8073634 - 02/26/08 05:44 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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No I don't. History proved Malthus wrong.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8073876 - 02/26/08 06:35 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Wrong about what? Every single thing he said?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8073884 - 02/26/08 06:36 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Yes.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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