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 MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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 Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#8073456 - 02/26/08 05:01 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
According to Malthus
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8073495 - 02/26/08 05:12 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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You have to do better than that.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8073634 - 02/26/08 05:44 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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No I don't. History proved Malthus wrong.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8073876 - 02/26/08 06:35 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Wrong about what? Every single thing he said?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8073884 - 02/26/08 06:36 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Yes.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8073897 - 02/26/08 06:38 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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That would make my original post incorrect. Is that what you are saying?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
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OrgoneConclusion
Junk Bond
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 8,172
Loc: Martini-que
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8074142 - 02/26/08 07:28 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Whole villages have been destroyed for less.
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I warned you NOT to give me a 3 shroom rating! 
Another ordinary day at The Lake.
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 NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
 
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8074174 - 02/26/08 07:33 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Why have none of the supporters of the original thesis responded to my challenge? I'm waiting. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,817
Loc: underbelly
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8074328 - 02/26/08 08:01 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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So, no. War is actually a factor in perpetuating the population crisis.
Nah. I think women wanting babies is the major factor.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” ~Stephen Roberts
Edited by Icelander (02/26/08 08:02 PM)
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8074586 - 02/26/08 08:55 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I'd appreciate it if you actually critiqued any of the premises in my argument, rather than saying "nah" to my conclusion and throwing in a red herring for distraction.
But for the sake of argument, I'll take the bait:
Wanting babies? Or having babies due to lack of birth control, etc.? Families that are aware of having limited resources (and who don't have a culturally imposed value system that takes women's control of thier own reproduction away from them) often plan appropriately. This is demonstrated by the fact that hunter gatherer cultures intentionally space births approx. 5 years apart, unlike agriculturalists (with thier larger and ever expanding resource base) who breed like bunnies. The expansion of agriculturalists leads to war between neighbouring expansionists for resources for the growing population-- its a nasty little cycle. Expansion leads to war, and war culture requires an ever increasing surplus population that can spare plenty of young men, who are no longer contributing to production, as war specialists. So, expansion = war = expansion.
Funny, the most so-called "primitive" societies are capable of consciously managing thier own populations so as to avoid over-exploiting thier territories yet we can't. Ideology seems to be at least one of the most decisive differences.
By the way, wanting babies isn't gonna do a damn thing to raise the population level so long as each couple limits themselves to a reasonable two children. Having any more than that when one has full and affordable access to contraception is greedy and immoral.
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
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Loc: Pineal Gland
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8074865 - 02/26/08 09:48 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
No I don't. History proved Malthus wrong.
I just remembered this from my human geography class. How is he wrong? Care to elaborate?
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Icelander]
#8074879 - 02/26/08 09:52 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
That would make my original post incorrect. Is that what you are saying?
That would be nice, but I don't know if it does.
Malthus's idea that war, famine, and disease keeps a population stable has definitely been proven false (along with his pessimistic economic theories.) War, famine, and disease all still exist, yet humanity just keep on expanding. Overall, it is hard to say how much of an impact war and disease really has on population growth.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8074932 - 02/26/08 10:01 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
This is demonstrated by the fact that hunter gatherer cultures intentionally space births approx. 5 years apart, unlike agriculturalists (with thier larger and ever expanding resource base) who breed like bunnies.
I can think of a number of examples that refute this. For instance, the current birthrate of agriculturalist Western Europe and birthrate of hunter-gatherers in New Guinea.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
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Posts: 743
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8075032 - 02/26/08 10:19 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
That would make my original post incorrect. Is that what you are saying?
That would be nice, but I don't know if it does.
Malthus's idea that war, famine, and disease keeps a population stable has definitely been proven false (along with his pessimistic economic theories.) War, famine, and disease all still exist, yet humanity just keep on expanding. Overall, it is hard to say how much of an impact war and disease really has on population growth.
I am not sure of the exact words malthus spoke, but I do know that war, disease and famine (I guess along with natural disaster but the others are more likely) are the only things that have the POTENTIAL to keep the population in check.
If the societies pressure couples to have more kids or there are cultural or economic motives behind making babies, then this will outweigh any potential stabilizers. If we still lived in the classical period then he would be 100% correct. Keep in mind that innovation and technology have profoundly impacted the growth of population. For example, sanitation techniques, medicine, and agricultural advancements all have saved billions of lives throughout the course of history. War seems to be the only thing that remains constant, but even this is beginning to weaken. Today's super high tech warfare minimizes casualties and keeps more enemies alive in the long run. The enemies would see how much of a disadvantage they are at and surrender before they give it a 'fighting chance'. Now if two global superpowers went at it with equal technological advancement then there would be a show. Even then it still isn't very promising. Look at nuclear weapons, everyone is afraid to use them because of the fear of destroying too much. The destructive force of future weapons give us an all or none scenario.
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8075406 - 02/26/08 11:46 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
This is demonstrated by the fact that hunter gatherer cultures intentionally space births approx. 5 years apart, unlike agriculturalists (with thier larger and ever expanding resource base) who breed like bunnies.
I can think of a number of examples that refute this. For instance, the current birthrate of agriculturalist Western Europe and birthrate of hunter-gatherers in New Guinea.
Modern birth control and changing values are major elements in the shrinking birth rate in places like Western Europe. Also, Western Europe is not defined by agriculture so much as industrialism so this example is a red herring. If you look at the archaeological record, there is always a population explosion alongside shifts in the complexity of subsistence strategies, such as the introduction and intensification of horticulture and then agriculture.
I don't know enough about the birth rates of hunter gatherers in New Guinea, so I can't comment on this with total confidence. But assuming your example is accurate, I suspect this may have something to do with thier relationship to outsiders and probable changes in subsistence strategies/morals introduced by colonizers and missionaries. You simply can't have a significant population boom without some change in subsistence strategy which intensifies the amount of resources coming into the group. You can have all the babies you want, but if you can't feed them all enough, some of them are gonna die. I don't understand why this is so objectionable to you. It doesn't make a person a Malthusian to recognize that finite resources can only support a finite population.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#8075458 - 02/27/08 12:01 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:
I do know that war, disease and famine (I guess along with natural disaster but the others are more likely) are the only things that have the POTENTIAL to keep the population in check.
No.
What about conscious reproductive planning? Women have been doing this for millennia where not hindered by religious dogmatists. There are many herbs that have been/are used as contraceptives or abortifacients all across the globe that women utilize to control thier personal birth rate.
examples:
queen anne's lace
rue
angelica
black cohosh
blue cohosh
ginger
mugwort
parsley
pennyroyal
cotton root bark
papaya
tansy
Now we also have fancy things like condoms, diaphragms, spermicidal lube, IUD's, vasectomies, menstrual extraction and medical abortions. Sex education plays an incredibly valuable role in lowering birth rates. If it weren't for sex ed, I bet you anything that most women in north america would be preggers before they hit thier 20's, rather than choosing to wait or simply to never have kids at all.
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
#8075460 - 02/27/08 12:01 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I agree with everything you just said in conjunction with Niam's point about birth control.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/27/08 12:02 AM)
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 2,238
Last seen: 13 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: Irishdrunk]
#8075474 - 02/27/08 12:03 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Icelander, what the hell kind of non-sense ideology is this?
Seriously, if you think war and death is a means to balance the earth's ecology, you may aswell go burn down the hosues of all your relatives, and then proceed to hang yourself.
I seriously hope this was just a mindless thread resulting from boredom. I think you are mostly interested in reading the different reactions. You couldn't possibly suffer from such a strong mental limitation.
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"The universe is honest, humanity is not." - A star
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,410
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8075496 - 02/27/08 12:10 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Western Europe is not defined by agriculture so much as industrialism so this example is a red herring.
Whats the difference between an agricultural society and an industrial society? A thought industrialism was just a by-product of agriculture. Another way of putting it may be that agriculture is the foundation of industry.
Quote:
You simply can't have a significant population boom without some change in subsistence strategy which intensifies the amount of resources coming into the group. You can have all the babies you want, but if you can't feed them all enough, some of them are gonna die. I don't understand why this is so objectionable to you.
I don't object to that. I object to the assumption that no hunter-gather society overpopulates or expands.
Quote:
the fact that hunter gatherer cultures intentionally space births approx. 5 years apart
o rly?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe
Registered: 09/02/04
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Last seen: 13 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8075555 - 02/27/08 12:27 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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I agree that war and famine keep the population in check. 1-1=0 (upon further contemplation.. no, it does not)
This by no means should let us adopt the idea that war and famine are acceptable. We should not assume that 1-1=0 and that there are no other equations! How about 1/2+6-4+2-0.5=0? (not bad eh?) We are not limited beings! We can do better than this!
War, famine, disease... nobody wants these reality. If you believe that this is the hand we have been dealt and we cannot play it any other way, then why don't you fly your asses to a country that is crumbling in a shell-shocked hell, or move in with a starving African family? Please... These small-minded cowards (Malthus) actually think it makes them "strong" to adopt these kinds of ideas and hold them in high regards, as if it holds domain over creation. Weak...
Population still increases. China should get nuked, right?
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"The universe is honest, humanity is not." - A star
Edited by Ginseng1 (02/27/08 12:36 AM)
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