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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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 Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? 
#8009685 - 02/11/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hello to all you Shroomers... This is my first post after being a professional lurker for quite sometime.
I've been intrigued about Datura ever since I encountered experiences of complete and utter delerium--ranging from talking to people who weren't there and the warping of everything that was once real to seeing visions of horrific madness and destruction.
I'm aware that the potential for overdose is extremely high... in fact, what might be considered a "trip" on Datura might even more accurately be described as delusional hallucinations occurring while being poisoned by an anticholinergic. However, I'm more concerned about the potential negative effects upon cognition and general intelligence than the possibility for an overdose (which can be avoided by starting at a low quantity of seeds and gradually working up to the desired level).
From my readings, it seems like no-one has given much thought to the longterm effects of Datura usage. It seems to me that anything that blocks the effects of acetylcholine in such a manifest way could be doing permanent damage to your cholinergic system... a system that deals with memory, cognition, logic, and essentially what "makes" you intelligent. Considering that such nootropic drugs such as choline and lecithin raise one's levels of acetylcholine (providing more efficient transmission of signals in the brain and thereby subjectively raising one's ability to think lucidly), is it possible that Datura usage could provide the opposite effect?
From anecdotal evidence based on Erowid and other forums, a portion of users report having, among other things, permanent problems with stuttering that had not occurred before usage, feelings of decreased intelligence, and from reports about FOAFs, seemingly permanent schizophrenia and/or odd behavior patterns indicative of brain damage. Another interesting argument to consider is that one of the principal effects of Datura is to invoke a state of frank delirium... a state that statistically speaking does in fact increase the chances of inducing dementia later on in life (perhaps a sign that Datura usage gives a hammer-blow to the cholinergic system, making it more vulnerable and weakened).
Other interesting patterns can be noticed from diphenhydramine and dramamine trip reports; both of which are potent anticholinergics (although not quite as potent as the mother of them all, Datura.) The occasional trip report mentions difficulty forming sentences and inability to put clear thoughts together, lasting up till months after the experience. Now supposedly, anticholinergic poisoning can be completely reversible by administration of physostigmine--meaning that the agent competitively inhibiting the acetylcholine receptor disappears. This does NOT mean, however, that rampant use of these anticholinergic drugs will not damage one's acetylcholine receptors enough to noticeably decrease cognition and intelligence.
Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill here, or is there in fact reason to believe that Datura or other anticholinergic drugs does in fact have the possibility to cause brain damage? Now, I'm not counting the very apparent brain damage that can result from fevers or excess body heat generated by the Datura's other anticholinergic symptoms... this can be avoided by simple precautions. I am worried about the far more subtle and (I believe) unpreventable brain damage that could result from impairment of the cholinergic system. I have not been able to find any articles or scientific research backing this up (probably because testing for minor decreases in general intelligence or cognition after Datura usage is not a highly interesting topic to the scientific community :P), asides from a few studies that point out that excessive usage of diphenhydramine in the elderly can in fact trigger dementia and progressive decline.
Your thoughts?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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fushock
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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 Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8010017 - 02/11/08 06:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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From what I've heard, if you want to do Datura you probably already have brain damage.
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 azurite
4got10horse
Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 173
Loc: oregon coast range
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8010467 - 02/11/08 07:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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datura is fucked up. i would never ingest it. i grow it though mixed in with my corn to deter symphylans. i get light headed just smelling the flowers. these huge hummingbird moths come to them in the night. they are so cool to see. i think you are on to something but i don't know for sure. i have always been more worried about liver failure.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: azurite]
#8011034 - 02/11/08 09:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just don't do datura.
I've never done it, but I've never heard anything good about it.
Why would you willingly ingest a substance that will create a waking nightmare?
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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Entropymancer
Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8011091 - 02/11/08 09:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think that chronic use is enough of an issue to be concerned about long-term repercussions.
Just doing it once isn't apt to cause much damage expect possibly via fever (your brain isn't supposed to get that hot), and I doubt you'll ever do it again.
Why worry about it? 
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Entropymancer]
#8011110 - 02/11/08 09:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, are you considering doing it?
cause...don't.
"there are demons in the below mind."
-Roland the Gunslinger
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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: g00ru]
#8011330 - 02/11/08 11:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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ugh if i didnt have stuff to do tomorrow i would take some will tho put some in my next brew tho i agree there should be much concern, tho i dont think it really causes horrible brain damage cant say for sure tho. i never had any issuses and still do wonderful on the EEG
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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hpi
Tsar Bomba
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 11,922
Loc: Montreal, Canada 
Last seen: 11 months, 10 days
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8011343 - 02/11/08 11:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Datura and brugmansia ( datura on a tree ) are really amazing and fascinating drugs.
I don't know why so many people are against it and say don't do it and all that.
So it's very toxic and dangerous but how many members shoot smack into there veins everyday and such? Id rather have an amazing Brugmansia trip.
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Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam!
Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam!
There exists one lie that is the absolute worst. A lie that has successfully infiltrated many of the Western governments. This lie is Christianity, and it must be fought in every way, shape and form. Burn the churches and kill the priests. The abomination that is Christianity must be wiped from this Earth.
4-Methyl-Aminorex
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: hpi]
#8011350 - 02/11/08 11:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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lol
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8012776 - 02/12/08 10:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just some idle speculation: what if Datura-induced delerium was merely the projection of the user's dreams into waking life?. Some have hypothesized that acetylcholine, which these anticholinergic deliriants appear to affect, controls the boundaries between our waking and our dreaming lives... a surge of it ushers in sleep and its levels lessen during the day.
So, (and here comes the speculative part), would trying to control a Datura trip be similar to attempting to lucid dream? As an ordinary dreamer, I've gotten uncontrollably swept-away by nightmares and helplessly pinned to whatever figment of a plot my addled brain's cooked up--just exactly the same way that most Datura users find themselves in an uncontrollable, nightmarish trip for 3 days. So what if a person well-versed in lucid dreaming (more specifically, the WILD technique) were to try out Datura? My hypothesis is that this person might actually be able "harness" the power of delerium to unlock the hidden secrets of Datura... lucid dreaming while awake could quite literally transport one to a completely different universe for the duration of the trip.
The WILD technique would, I'm guessing, be one of the few ways to attempt to master this tropane alkaloid, as it involved going directly from waking to sleeping while maintaining a continuous line of consciousness--rather like attempting to maintain lucidity while the Datura alkaloids slowly seep into effect. Perhaps this was the secret of the bizarro shaman... the gatekeepers into the world of insanity could have been merely the logical extension of the lucid dreamer into the real world.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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FarFromHere
~Teotzlcoatl~
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 926
Loc: The 7th Plane
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8013157 - 02/12/08 12:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: fushock]
#8013196 - 02/12/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fushock said:
From what I've heard, if you want to do Datura you probably already have brain damage.
that was what i was gonna say.
from what i've read i feel that datura uses it's chemicals for protection. puts you into a delirium & physical discomfort so the consumer would leave the plant the hell alone.
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SleepyF0x
I bleed nicotine...
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,150
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Bridgeburner]
#8013295 - 02/12/08 01:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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so do psilocybin and aminita mushrooms. stop doing mushrooms?
The Cypher: thumbs up 
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Everybody's a ninja...
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Taharka
The Root of the Problem
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: deCypher]
#8013350 - 02/12/08 01:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Diphenhydramine has taught me that anticholinergia can be a beautiful thing.
I haven't found any damnatory reports about long-term diphenhydramine use. Check PubMed - some people are on the stuff for years - and when I asked my doctor about the dangers of long-term diphenhydramine use, he couldn't think of anything.
If you use Datura once or thrice in your life, you're probably not killing anything you would have otherwise missed. Unless you die.
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FarFromHere
~Teotzlcoatl~
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 926
Loc: The 7th Plane
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Taharka]
#8014367 - 02/12/08 06:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you must use one of the Baneful herbs- Datura, Brugmanisa, Belladonna, Henbane, Mandrake, etc.
Please smoke brugmansia, It seems to be the safest.
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" -Hopi Proverb
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hpi
Tsar Bomba
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 11,922
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Last seen: 11 months, 10 days
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: FarFromHere]
#8014925 - 02/12/08 08:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Brugmansia is just Datura on a tree.
I posted pics of my plant here once I think.
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Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam!
Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam!
There exists one lie that is the absolute worst. A lie that has successfully infiltrated many of the Western governments. This lie is Christianity, and it must be fought in every way, shape and form. Burn the churches and kill the priests. The abomination that is Christianity must be wiped from this Earth.
4-Methyl-Aminorex
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: Taharka]
#8017059 - 02/13/08 10:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Would you care to elaborate on how diphenhydramine taught you the beauty of anticholinergia?
As for myself, I have no idea why I'm so strangely fascinated by the power of these plants. There's just something compelling about being able to walk the depths of Morpheus' realm, where reason and any semblance of coherent control die a sloppy death to the ancient, primeval dream-logic issuing from semi-random firings centered in the brainstem. Our deepest fears, our deepest wants, and every single bit of repressed subconscious emotion that lurks in the muddy waters of our reptilian brain are there for the taking--if one is brave enough to make the plunge into the world of the tropane alkaloids. Sure, if one is unready or foolish (as I would estimate the vast majority of wanna-be Datura users are), the yawning chasm of anticholinergia would open to a three day nightmare in front of your eyes, but the examples of South American shamans who add a pinch of brugmansia or another tropane to their ayahuasca brew shows that there are, at least, a few brave souls willing to subject themselves to the possibility of utter madness.
To stir up some evidence for my hypothesis that proficient lucid dreamers might be able to walk the Datura plane more competently, let me inquire to the Shroomery at large: has anyone skilled in the WILD technique or any consistent lucid dreaming method attempted Datura? If so, was it still possible to remain lucid throughout the duration of the trip, or was this anticholinergic hammer still too powerful?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: hpi]
#8017188 - 02/13/08 11:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hpi said:
Brugmansia is just Datura on a tree.
I posted pics of my plant here once I think.
no it has differnt alakloid levels like how differnt genus of psilo containing mushrooms
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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mescalinaz
TheCapitator
Registered: 12/14/07
Posts: 117
Loc: NorthWeastFromTheEast
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: thedudenj]
#8017561 - 02/13/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i smoke some dried flowers from time to time... makes me feel really good... i will probably never eat any seeds again as i did it once and simply overdosed which was horrific trip from one side but from the other quite interesting experience into realms of my mind... i am going to try for sure belladonna's roots by starting small and building it up to expected results as it's the roots that tend to have the most stable alkaloid content out of the entire plant.
what can i say guess its not for everybody same like its with the case of psychedelics. but peepz who claim it's fucked up just because somebody else didnt know how to dose it as well as themselves have never tried it's kind of hypocrisy here. it's the same like saying "i dont need to touch the fire to know it's hot". so how the hell do you know its hot then?? coz somebody else told you? i dont think so...
looks like im here on defending side as i enjoy the way i do datura.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Does the use of Datura and other anticholinergics lead to brain damage? [Re: mescalinaz]
#8018380 - 02/13/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I concur... I liked a quote I read somewhere that said "Datura is like post-graduate work for psychonauts" -- and I agree. It's strange that the online drug community has been moved more to shun all talk of dosage and method for anticholinergics in an effort to prevent naive 14-year olds from chasing down ten Stramonium seed-pods and dying, when in the process valuable information about these pharmacological factors is getting lost. Just because a topic is highly dangerous and should not be pursued without massive care and study, does not mean we should prevent free speech in the name of safety.
It is interesting to note, incidentally, that there are a few (scanty at best) reports on Erowid where the Datura user did spiritually grow from the experience. There seems to be a vague mention of a mysterious, yet extremely powerful female presence that pervades this plant. I could compare to Castaneda when he comments that "she is as powerful as the best of allies ... [but] she gives them a taste of power too soon without fortifying their hearts and makes them domineering and unpredictable," but as his source-referencing is shoddy as best I will merely make reference to actual trip reports.
My question, however, is assuming that there is in fact a spiritual lesson of the same manner that traditional psychedelics give embodied in Datura (for ex. the philosophy of letting it be or the view that all is one), then what is it? It's clearly a harsh lesson (as evidenced by the thousands of Datura casualties ending up in three-day hospital stays), but it seems there are some who "get it." But what lesson is this that your immensely powerful subconscious is trying to get across to you?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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