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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Faht makes a bulk tub * 22
    #7893964 - 01/17/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

hey,
So I said I would post this over here and so I shall. :wink:

Quote:

ok, so this is kinda in conjunction with my late casing  thread. from the looks of it, it's about split between the amount of peeps that are having success with it and those that are about so-so with the results. I think the difficulty might lie with matted Mycelium ; the same reason that straight grains don't fruit as well as rez effect or bulk subs or straight grains that don't have a casing  layer. Thats why if you are fruiting  straight grains and waiting for pins to do a late casing , you may be waiting a long time and then by the time you see a pin, the sub is low on water etc. So i'll just show you how I make the tubs step by step so you can see what I'm talking about. I'll talk more about the "matted mycelium" thing as I go.

heres the late casing  thread: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7708447/an/0/page/0

So I want to say the strain  I'm using in this thread is PE and it is a clone . It's the same PE clone  I've always had and is from over a year ago. it was dried out in a faht jar until about a month ago. The clone  was a very lucky blind myc pull from a PE cake that hadn't even fruited yet, but I got a very prolific and potent fruiter. It was obtained with this tek: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6590986/an/0/page/0

The spawn  is rye  and was prepared with this method: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7718009/an/0/page/0
**actually, all the jars you see in that link are the same thirty jars used in this thread**

here we go:

Mixing the Substrate


I use two tubs. One larger than the other. I mix in the small one and the larger one is to catch any spillage and to keep things clean, but you can use whatever. I find it easier to hydrate the substrate  in a smaller tub too.



Now I use a bowl that is 3.5 L to measure out the HPoo  and Straw...



Two of those go into the tub (so about 7 L of Hpoo)...



Then about 3/4 of that of straw  (only once)..



Then I just eye out about three cups or so of verm . I used course here but you can use whatever grade... it's mainly for water retention. Here it is all together before mixing..



mixed before water added...



Now I add about a half gallon of water to that amount of dry substrate . I'm pasteurizing this in oven bags (in this case) so I want to have the mix slightly more saturated than field capacity  due to some evaporation during the Pasteurization  time..



Now I pour the water into the mixture and use my fist to press down on the mix. This forces the water into the dry substrate...



Now I break the pressed down substrate  up and repeat the pressing down with the fist until the water is evenly distributed. Here's what it looks like after multiple presses..




*EDIT 1/10/14* Now, as for what follows, I used this technique for pasteurizing A LOT of substrate all at once, but I probably wouldn't use this method nowadays.  I am going to leave the operation up so that if you feel like playing around a bit with your procedures, you can see how I did it.  BUT, like I said, I wouldn't do it this way today.  The reason I wouldn't do it this way is because some of the material in the middle of the bags probably didn't get thoroughly pasteurized.  That is why I had to poke holes in the bags while they cooled so that fresh air was available to the material so the parts that didn't get thoroughly pasteurized wasn't given a chance to grow bacteria before I spawned to it.  I would still prepare the material like above^^^^, but I would pasteurize in smaller amounts with less times to make sure all the material was pasteurized properly.  RR does this in jars in his videos... or just use smaller amounts in oven bags like below... like maybe 8 bag loads instead of one.  Frank Horrigan also breaks it down here: A list of how Frank gets shit done.  I was going to link straight to his technique, but he's got a lot of good stuff to check out, so you have to do a little digging. :smile:



I usually use 6 mil polybags but not everyone has them so I'm doing this with my favorite things in the world, oven bags... turkey size...



Now this is important... I count how many handfuls it takes to put this amount into the oven bag.. In this case, it takes about 10 of these handfuls for the amount of substrate  we just made.. I'll tell you why we count in a bit..



Here we are half done...



Now repeat the same process with the same amount of substrate  and put it in the same oven bag with the first substrate  you made...




Now remember that it took about 20 handfuls to substrate  to make that amount... this is one bins worth of substrate  in a 54 qt (around that size) bin at a depth of about 4.5 inches.

Like I said, I'm using oven bags, but since they are going to be in 160 F. water for about 4.5 hours, they get weak so we're going to double bag them.



I like the steam method of pasteurizing because it's waaaay less messy and you don't leach any nutes out of the substrate.

I put this in cold water (so it all heats up evenly) with a large bowl of water on top of the bags of substrate  to keep it submerged. Now make sure you don't tie the bags off.. if you do this, steam will build up and make your bags really hard to keep under the water as they will expand.. just let the bag openings hang over the side of the pot... make sure they aren't going to melt or start on fire though..



heres two tubs worth going as the same time.. Like I said, I keep them at about 160 F. for 4.5 hours.. they are about as big as a turkey so they need to cook as long as a turkey...



after 4.5 hours I remove the inner bag holding the substrate  from the PC  and outer bag...



Then I take a clean knife and poke small holes all over the bag about every two inches to let the substrate  breathe while it cools... if you don't do this, you'll probably end up with bacteria infestation.. I've had it happen.



Then I just lay them on a cookie sheet to cool with the bag openings loosely folded over like so for about four to six hours.. I mix the bag up every-once-in-awhile so that the center doesn't stay too warm..



Ok, now lets make the tub...

Ok, so like I said, I use 54 qt tubs with about 6 US quarter sized holes in the long sides and about 2-4 of the same sized holes in the short sides. These are covered with micropore tape.  Obviously clean it...



Now I put a garbage bag in the bottom of the bin as to prevent under Pinning . But first I clean the bag.. if you are going to clean everything else, you should definitely clean what the substrate  is going to be touching.. I do this by hanging the bag and with a alcohol doused paper towel in each hand, sandwich the bag on each side and streak down the bag until the entire bag has been wiped down..



here it is in the bottom of the tub..

.

Quote:



EDIT: Nov. 2016

THE METHOD OF "LAYMIX" As the name suggests, this is using both mixing and layering of the substrate and spawn methods while creating the substrate block--see below for directions and rough graph

Edit: the following is how I set up the tubs that I made and they obviously worked for me, but a lot of people say that mixing of the substrate is better for faster colonization... But I feel that you lose the ability to manipulate the fruiting surface with evenness in pinning and on a lesser note, pin sets.  Mixing the majority of the tub, but leaving two quarts worth of spawn And 3/4 inches of bulk material--preferably, coir (CVG) aside for making the fruiting surface (just like described below in the original directions).  So like this:

                Top
(3/4        inches    of  Just  CVG)
( two quarts worth of rye spawn )
(        Mixed      bulk                    )
(          sub        and        4          )
(          Quarts        of                  )
(____________spawn_______ )
            Bottom

I feel this better represents where I would have ended up with my substrate block design had I had the opportunity.  You get the fastness of mixed substrate colonization without losing the control of fruiting surface manipulation by concentrating high nutrients near the surface in an even layer, thereby bypassing any unevenness left at said surface by simply mixing the entire tub and fruiting it like that.  I believe that by placing an even layer of bulk sub over the spawn layer helps promote vertical myc through the bulk substrate layer much like a built-in casing layer.  This is not a frosting layer; it's actually the exact opposite of a frosting layer as the exposed grain layer is completely cover by the top substrate layer.


That concludes the directions for the "Laymix" method.  There are examples of people using this method, although they may be tweaked a lil to fit there growing parameters, the basic idea stems from laymixing.  Here is an awesome thread of trials done by Eatualive using the laymix method.. he calls it "substrate as casing", but it's the same method:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22445600.

It's a really great thread with awesome fruiting pics, so check it out!

Frank Horrigan did a tub using the laymix method as I pestered him enough :lol:  I believe he fruited the tub too early but he still did a great job and  a really heavy pin set was achieved and it pinned much earlier than other tubs using just mixing, but the weight on the first flush was slightly lacking, but like I said, I believe that was due to too early of fruiting conditions.. anyway that's here:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19789008#19789008

You can see the laymixed tub is the first one pictured.  I also go on to explain more of my rationale behind laymixing here:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19742012#19742012





Now back to the original post
:

Now comes why we counted the amount of handfuls of substrate  in the oven bag... we are going to layer the bin.. this is the first time layering for me; thats why I didn't post this right away, I wanted to make sure it worked first.. usually I mix the bottom 2/3 of the bins' substrate  and spawn  but inspired by visions laundry basket , I thought layering would work... not to mention it's way easier to just lay out a layer of bulk sub then a layer of spawn  than mix the whole shibang. I used five qts of rye  per tub. I'm using three qts for the "body" of the tub and two qts for the fruiting  surface.. so I need five layers of bulk sub total.. it looks something like this:

top layer of bulk sub (no spawn)
two qts of spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bulk sub
one qt spawn
bottom layer of bulk sub

The body of the substrate  isn't as important as the top spawn  layer as thats mainly what the fruits are going to pull from..

heres the bottom layer of bulk sub put in the tub with the garbage bag. it takes about four handfuls worth of spawn  per layer.. hence why we counted the amount of substrate





one qts worth of rye  on top of that..



Now repeat that layering until you get to the last two qts of grain..



see how much fuller that layer is with it being two qts worth? thats what the fruits are going to pull from for high nutes.

Now cover this with the last of the bulk substrate  and trim the extra bag off.. Highflyer taught us long ago about using bulk substrate  as a pseudo casing.. This will force verticle growth from the grain rather than lateral growth which keeps the Mycelium  rhizomophic and helps keep the myc from becoming too dense at knotting. But the high nute content of the substrate  isn't burried too deeply; they do much better when the high nute grains are directly under the bulk sub in a consistent layer. This is another reason that I think the late casing  works so well in this case; the myc isn't as dense as if there were grain directly in the top layer.

heres the tub after the top bulk layer and bag is trimmed away..



Now for the lid.. heres my second favorite thing in the world.. press and seal..



I just stretch it over half of the bin the long ways on one side like so..



then stretch another piece that slightly overlaps the over side...



Then I put a piece of painters tape over where the two pieces overlap to seal the lid...



Then I poke tiny holes about every two inches or so...



The bin is done. I put it in a room much like this one with a fan on 24/7 about 1.5 feet above the bins and a couple of floro lights that are on about 12 hours a day.. I do this right away I don't use any kind of incubator  or put additional coverage on the top of the substrate.. I'm looking for knotting just about the time that the entire bin is colonized... the sooner the better.. give that fucker light right away.  heres the room they go in..



heres just a side shot of six bins...



Now I even air these out (very briefly.. just enough to relieve some of the CO2 build up) about every other day while they are colonizing..

**This is not the standard by any means for a colonizing substrate.  If you don't have experience or know what you're doing (know how your strain variety will react to this), you can end up with a tub that pins too early.  I use micro pore tape which is much more restrictive of air than loose poly fil... My bins were getting large build ups of CO2 which is good for mycelium growth, but also for contamination growth as well... Relieving the build up by doing a single quick fanning every other day reduced the contams I was getting considerably.  However, it is my recommendation that if you are just starting out, that you start with more traditional techniques and restrict FAE to the time that you introduce the tubs to fruiting conditions.  If you are having troubles with contamination and/or prolonged pinning due to the strain variety that you are using, etc., THEN perhaps play with the idea of fanning during colonization.**

I actually go a step further and put a number on the bins on one side of the Press and seal (PNS) and arrange all the bins so that the numbers are on the same side of the PNS as they sit... you can see it in this pic..



every other day I put the top two bins in front on the bottom.. the back two bins on top and the front bins in the back and switch them so that the numbers are on the opposite side so that all the bins get the same type of air flow.

heres the bins at 2 days after being made.. you can see the myc coming up thru the top layer of bulk substrate...



day 4..



day 5.. picking up speed..



day 10...



The heat from the growing myc made a lot of condensation in my bins, but thats mainly because my pad is cooler than most i'm sure... I'm cold blooded. lol. about every four days I had a lot of pooling on the bins...



So I just padded it dry with a paper towel. heres the bins at casing  (at least three of them)...



The bins with the most pins at casing  (late-casing) did the best the first flush... heres the first pins that I saw...



heres a tub cased very thinly; you can see the myc underneath still...



like I said, the ones that I waited for the most pins at first did the best the first flush... heres the tub with the most pins at casing...

 

Now PE is a volatile strain.. it's very picky.. other strains love this method.. And I used rye  because it's sooooo freakin easy to prepare; so I'll take the bit of loss in production, but I guarantee if you use WBS  for those top two qts of grain, you'll get even better results.. no doubt in my mind. 

This was my response to a question basically asking me to explain my thoughts on the "dense" myc. issue I stated very early in this thread...

Quote:

This PE substrain  is an exception to the dense myc.. It takes really long to knot, giving the myc plenty of time to colonize thicker, but see how the top still has lots of crevises? I thinks that due the myc growing upwards and not linear which would fill in those gaps more. On the other strains that I did this with, SA and HB, they pinned quicker which left the top bulk sub layer less dense and more pins showed up. you know what I'm saying? Those other strains pretty much started Pinning  when the tub was just being fully colonized.. these PE bins were colonized completely for a few days before any knots showed up. I should have just waited longer to cased on those last three bins.. BUT the bins that didn't do as well the first flush  are Pinning  like crazy for this second flush.. I'll post more pics of the next flush  within the next few days. And that bin that did the best on the first flush  has the least amount of pins on it this flush . I mean it makes sense.. all the bins have the same amount of bulk substrate  and the same amount of spawn  with the exact same isolate.. so they should in the end, as long as they all make it through the same amount of flushes, do roughly the same amount of fruits, whether they do it this first flush  or in the next two or so.




if you would like to see how the rest of those six bins did, go to this link...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7833695/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

heres a shot of how well the layering is working.. colonized through and through..



I just put these bins through to the second flush and tossed em.. I could have gotten more and I would suggest that you do also, but for me, I'd rather have all that substrate out of my pad as soon as possible.. :thumbup:  two flushes for six bins gave me a smidge over 3 dry elbows. :smile: 

heres the end of the second flush in baskets awaiting the dryer (box fan lol)



heres the entire grow minus about 114 grams that were given away at a party last weekend..



other bins done this exact same way...



these bins were done this same way, BUT only one qt of rye was used in the top layer instead of the two... I figured out two works waaaay better. :smile:

     

just remember that these are all clones... multispore  will probably vary.






I hope you've enjoyed this thread!  now, I am in no way saying that this is the be all way of doing it.. theres hundreds of ways and this is just one of them.. use all of it, some of it, or none of it.. s'up to you, but at any rate... there it is. :smile:

fahtster

Edited by fahtster (12/10/16 06:15 PM)

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7893993 - 01/17/08 05:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

Nice work bro!


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #7894005 - 01/17/08 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

w00t


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #7894022 - 01/17/08 05:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

BRAVO what a show !!!! :headbanger:


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OfflineSamurai_Jim
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Crasher] * 1
    #7894065 - 01/17/08 05:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That is friggin awesome! That is what I am shooting for. Thanks for the write up.


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Offlinedonpatch
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Samurai_Jim] * 1
    #7894150 - 01/17/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i saw this first over at the topia... thanks for sharing fahtster


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Offlinelemonjello
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: donpatch] * 1
    #7894216 - 01/17/08 06:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Great write up! I'm curious to know more about this "matted mycelium". I have some bags that are waiting to pin (9 days now) and the mycelium is looking pretty matted. It had aerial myc. just a few days ago. Thanks for sharing your great work!

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: lemonjello] * 1
    #7896083 - 01/18/08 05:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"114grams given away" geezz how many ppl were trippin lol

freekin awsome harvest faht:borat:
hopefully ill get my results up to this


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: flushme] * 1
    #7896439 - 01/18/08 08:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

damnnnnnn 114g given away at a party?
niiiiiiiiiiiiice
i wish i could give out 32 eighths lol

:rockon:

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: galadar] * 1
    #7897048 - 01/18/08 11:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Its nice to see someone mention that you need to poke holes in the bags after pasteurizing. The bags stay hot inside FOREVER unless you do this. Nice job :thumbup:


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: legallyhomeless] * 1
    #7897092 - 01/18/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Its nice to see someone mention that you need to poke holes in the bags after pasteurizing. The bags stay hot inside FOREVER unless you do this. Nice job :thumbup:



i dump pastuerized jars of casing and sub into a metal pot and mix around and what not. let it cool a bit in the pot. all uncovered and whatnot.

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OfflineHawaiian
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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: galadar] * 1
    #7897377 - 01/18/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think the results would be about the same on a smaller scale in say a 12x12 tupperware container using broken up PFtek cakes instead of the rye?

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: Hawaiian] * 1
    #7897627 - 01/18/08 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

thanks everyone! :smile:  lol yeah, it was a huge party...peeps love it when I show up lol 

Hawaiian- yeah, I'm sure it would be something similar to otto's buckets... probably get a really nice pin set too... pf cakes would work great I'm guessin. :thumbup:

fahtster

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7897674 - 01/18/08 02:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nice writeup and pictures. Thanks for posting.
RR


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #7897809 - 01/18/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

QUESTION:

After the tub is fully colonized, how long do you expose them to light so they start pinning?

Then after you case them do you still expose them to light or keep them dark until the myc breaks through the casing????

Nice grow by the way, :thumbup: i have some similar projects on the way.

Take care

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #7899510 - 01/18/08 10:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Nice writeup and pictures. Thanks for posting.
RR


Yes sir, that would be getting the most out of your work and giving a nice tutorial to all of us. Thank you.


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: gringoman] * 1
    #7899682 - 01/18/08 11:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I keep them exposed to light roughly 8-12 hours a day from the day they are made til the day they are tossed.  The idea with that is that while they colonize the bulk sub, pinning is being induced.. so right about the time they juuuuust about fully colonized the substrate they start pinning and matting is limited.  The sooner they pin the better. :smile: 

Thanks.

faht

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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #7902079 - 01/19/08 02:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i started introducing light to 1 of my straw tubs its about 80-90% done, its only been about a week since so ill see how it does


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: flushme] * 1
    #7902303 - 01/19/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

awesome post...
with great pics and write up...
cheers


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Re: Faht makes a bulk tub [Re: mescalinaz] * 1
    #7903914 - 01/19/08 10:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i was wondering how exactly you put down the casing. do you spread it out with your hands, and if so, have you ever knocked out a pin doing so?

seems like it would be hard with a layer so thin, maybe its just me.


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