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OfflineMark_W
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For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider
    #7143603 - 07/07/07 10:48 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Here's a little piece written by Adin Ballou, edited by me, on the fundamental nature of voting. If words like "morality" make you think of organized religion and restrictions on behavior (ie lack of freedom), then this edit probably won't sit well with you, but the word "morality" is the most general word I could come up with and does not exclude freedom in my interpretation.
Here it is:

Losing Influence
We have a class of friends who say they are heartily sick of politics, but they continue in them for the purpose of reforming the government - a very laudable end, but rather questionable means. They say they shall lose all effective influence in the political world, if they take the Non-Resistant position.

A few words to those friends. What is it you are so much afraid of losing? Your influence! And what is your influence in the political world now? You feel the force of your conscience and moral obligation. Do your political parties feel it? Will they permit you to apply your moral principles to anyone of their favorite doctrines or measures? Will they allow you to direct, or even to qualify materially any one of those measures? Will they allow you to lead or to advise them? Will they suffer your scruples to interfere with a single unprincipled scheme they chance to embrace? Never. Do they come to you to inquire who are suitable men for office? Never. And when you object to their candidates, on the ground that they are immoral people, will they give way to your objections? Never.

The only chance you have to acquire consequence among them is to yield your scruples, compromise your principles, and support their measures. Then they can use you. Then your high principles, and good moral character, serve them well. They are proud of you; and by the help of your respectability, they can hold up their heads in their iniquity. "See," say they, "don't you see what good moral people, what honest, upright, worthy men belong to our party! Would they be with us if we were so very corrupt!" Thus you serve them as cloaks to hide their deformity, and are the veriest tools in their hands - the tail, and not the head of the party. Is not this the naked truth?

What, then, is your influence? Nothing for good, but much for evil. You cannot lead. Your advice weighs nothing. But your respectability is first rate capital in the hands of selfish demagogues. Take yourselves out of the way, every one of you. Stand on your own ground. Withdraw your respectability, and make it felt in reproof, rebuke, and utter disfellowship of wickedness. Then you will have some influence on the right side. Then you will give a check to popular wrong and folly, which politicians themselves will not know how to overcome.

"But will not bad people do all the voting, and hold all the offices?" And what if they should? How much worse will the conditions of things be than now? The only difference will be that bad people will then work with their cloak off, and without good people to back them up. The consequence would be that their reign would be disgraceful and brief. They would soon fall into a quarrel and devour one another. Meantime the eyes of the multitude would be opened; and they would call for a new and better order of things - for a government of justice, mercy, love and peace. Therefore the influence of good people does not lie in voting at the tail of corrupt party organizations, nor even in holding a few inferior offices at the expense of their moral principles, but in falling back upon moral power, and unitedly insisting on righteousness, equity and goodness, as the basis of individual; social and national happiness.

"But what can so few do?" What do they now do where they are? Mischief, absolute mischief. Standing by themselves, they will become a mighty moral host; increasing every year in numbers and influence, till the world shall recognize them as its true friends. If every town in the United States had an average of fifty men in it, of stern, unbending moral integrity - standing aloof from its ballot-box, and its cartridge-box - ever vigilantly watching its political and legal proceedings, approving the good and rebuking the evil, would the effect be injurious to society? Would not those moral power bands be the greatest conservators of social order and prosperity in their respective neighborhoods? No doubt of it. To this complexion things will gradually come; and from such a complexion they will advance to a peaceful but complete revolution of political institutions. Then will civil government become a simple, efficient and perfectly beneficent means of promoting universal rectitude and happiness in the earth.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (07/08/07 01:41 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Mark_W]
    #7143771 - 07/07/07 11:31 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I suggest not listening to the original post and to go out and vote in the upcoming election.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Redstorm]
    #7143805 - 07/07/07 11:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Did you understand any of that? Be honest.


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143814 - 07/07/07 11:43 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

i didnt read it. too many "words"


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7143855 - 07/07/07 11:52 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't bother reading it once I saw the title.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Mark_W]
    #7143876 - 07/07/07 11:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

We have a class of friends who say they are heartily sick of politics, but they continue in them for the purpose of reforming the government - a very laudable end, but rather questionable means. They say they shall lose all effective influence in the political world, if they take the Non-Resistant position.
A few words to those friends. What is it you are so much afraid of losing? Your influence! And what is your influence in the political world now? You feel the force of your conscience and moral obligation. Do your political parties feel it? Will they permit you to apply your moral principles to anyone of their favorite doctrines or measures? Will they allow you to direct, or even to qualify materially any one of those measures? Will they allow you to lead or to advise them? Will they suffer your scruples to interfere with a single unprincipled scheme they chance to embrace? Never. Do they come to you to inquire who are suitable men for office? Never. And when you object to their candidates, on the ground that they are immoral people, will they give way to your objections? Never.
The only chance you have to acquire consequence among them is to yield your scruples, compromise your principles, and support their measures. Then they can use you. Then your high principles, and good moral character, serve them well. They are proud of you; and by the help of your respectability, they can hold up their heads in their iniquity. "See," say they, "don't you see what good moral people, what honest, upright, worthy men belong to our party! Would they be with us if we were so very corrupt!" Thus you serve them as cloaks to hide their deformity, and are the veriest tools in their hands - the tail, and not the head of the party. Is not this the naked truth?
What, then, is your influence? Nothing for good, but much for evil. You cannot lead. Your advice weighs nothing. But your respectability is first rate capital in the hands of selfish demagogues. Take yourselves out of the way, every one of you. Stand on your own ground. Withdraw your respectability, and make it felt in reproof, rebuke, and utter disfellowship of wickedness. Then you will have some influence on the right side. Then you will give a check to popular wrong and folly, which politicians themselves will not know how to overcome.
"But will not bad people do all the voting, and hold all the offices?" And what if they should? How much worse will the conditions of things be than now? The only difference will be that bad people will then work with their cloak off, and without good people to back them up. The consequence would be that their reign would be disgraceful and brief. They would soon fall into a quarrel and devour one another. Meantime the eyes of the multitude would be opened; and they would call for a new and better order of things - for a government of justice, mercy, love and peace. Therefore the influence of good people does not lie in voting at the tail of corrupt party organizations, nor even in holding a few inferior offices at the expense of their moral principles, but in falling back upon moral power, and unitedly insisting on righteousness, equity and goodness, as the basis of individual; social and national happiness.
"But what can so few do?" What do they now do where they are? Mischief, absolute mischief. Standing by themselves, they will become a mighty moral host; increasing every year in numbers and influence, till the world shall recognize them as its true friends. If every town in the United States had an average of fifty men in it, of stern, unbending moral integrity - standing aloof from its ballot-box, and its cartridge-box - ever vigilantly watching its political and legal proceedings, approving the good and rebuking the evil, would the effect be injurious to society? Would not those moral power bands be the greatest conservators of social order and prosperity in their respective neighborhoods? No doubt of it. To this complexion things will gradually come; and from such a complexion they will advance to a peaceful but complete revolution of political institutions. Then will civil government become a simple, efficient and perfectly beneficent means of promoting universal rectitude and happiness in the earth.




Try separating that into paragraphs, bro.

Precious few people are going to have the fortitude to wade through 'Attack of The Blob'.  :wink:


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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul


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OfflineMark_W
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: zorbman]
    #7144366 - 07/08/07 01:39 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

yea, I know. It's quasi-seperated into paragraphs, but indenting didn't work for some reason, i'll try seperating it another way.


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (07/08/07 02:02 AM)


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OfflinePhredM
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Mark_W]
    #7145940 - 07/08/07 12:50 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The author raises an argument I have come across many times before -- that since the American political process is cursed with venal and pandering politicians, voting for ANY of them amounts to a legitimization of "business as usual". In other words voting provides a veneer of respectability to a corrupt endeavor.

While there is undeniable merit to the argument, the proposed solution is as wrong as can be. Citizens SHOULD vote -- they just shouldn't vote for any of the established politicians.

The problem with not voting at all is that the press and politicians point to the non-votes as an indication of voter apathy rather than voter disgust or voter protest. The way to make it clear that you care about your vote is to cast one. Just don't cast it for any politician you think is a piece of dogshit. How does one do that?

Well, in Canada, a voter in a Federal election has the option to show up at the polls and tell the scrutineers there, "I decline to vote". Once the ballots have been counted the government must release not only the total votes for Candidate A, Candidate B, Candidate C, etc... they must also release the number of spoiled ballots AND the number of "declined to vote" ballots. A "declined to vote" is NOT the same thing as a spoiled ballot.

Now, there are two problems with this option in Canada --

1) almost no Canadian voters are aware it is an actual option

2) the Canadian media almost never announces the number of "declined to vote" ballots. To be fair, they almost never announce the number of spoiled ballots either.

There must be some way to achieve the same result in American elections as well. Or maybe not -- now that more and more polling stations are going to paperless ballots (electronic voting machines) perhaps the days of "write-in" candidates are gone. By that I mean one can no longer receive his ballot, go into the booth and write "Mickey Mouse" or "Frank Zappa", then drop it into the box. If so, then a voter who wishes to register his disapproval with the establishment slate of politicians (i.e. Republicans and Democrats) should either vote for a third party candidate or -- as a last resort -- deliberately spoil his ballot. You had better believe that if in the next US federal election the percentage of spoiled ballots hits double digits, even the US media will be forced to report it.

So vote. Just don't vote Republican or Democrat. The best option is to vote Libertarian. Or hold your nose and vote Green or even Communist. If there are no third party candidates on the ballot in your district, just Demopublicans and Republicrats, and no provision for you to write in your own preferred candidate (Frank Zappa is a perennial favorite write-in even after all these years) then spoil your ballot. Just don't stay home.




Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Mark_W]
    #7145968 - 07/08/07 12:57 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Although I don't agree with the sentiment, I like the way this guy says it:

Quote:

31 Reasons to Vote

by Rob

Don’t blame me, I didn’t vote. ~ Jeremy Sapienza

My barber believes passionately that everyone should vote, and since one of my primary objectives is to persuade people to abstain from politics, I often raise the subject with her during election season. Although our conversations remain cordial, usually they are short and intense (at least her part). Last week she asked me, “Why would you not vote? I think that’s the most dishonorable and un-American thing you could do.” But it seems to me that it is the voter who must justify his actions, since voting is an affirmative act. Since most voters have never really considered why they vote, I have decided to assist them by providing a list of reasons to vote:

1. You believe that a majority of voters has the right to impose their will on everyone else through the use of force.

2. You want to steal from other people and/or force them to do certain things, but you’d rather have someone else point the gun for you.

3. You believe that the State is legitimate, and want to provide legitimacy to it for the next two to six years.

4. You believe that democracy is a legitimate decision-making process, and don’t mind being bound by the results.

5. You believe that voting will protect you from government or slow the growth of the State.

6. You want to live in a political society instead of a civil society.

7. You prefer to wield political power because you’re too lazy to work for social power.

8. You want the politicians to have a mandate and to be able to say, “The people have spoken!”

9. You don’t mind if the government helps you decide by narrowing your choices for you.

10. You’re a follower who needs to be led, and believe that everyone else needs “leaders” who are selected by a majority of the voters.

11. You believe that millions of people gave their lives to defend your right to vote.

12. You want to honor the victims of 9/11, who were killed because some foreigners didn’t like the fact that we live in a democracy.

13. You believe that voting is the way to make your voice heard, and that politicians hear your voice when you vote.

14. You believe that if your candidate wins, you will get what you want, just like you want it.

15. You like the way that politicians have been running things, and want to send them back for more.

16. You believe that politicians will keep their campaign promises.

17. You don’t believe that power will corrupt politicians once they’re in office.

18. You trust the politicians you vote for, and believe they care about you.

19. Your government school taught you that voting is a privilege.

20. You like to exercise your freedom—to choose your master.

21. You believe that your vote will affect the outcome of an election.

22. You believe that voting fraud won’t affect the outcome of an election.

23. You believe that the new touch-screen voting machines are reliable, tamper-proof, and leave an adequate paper trail in case the results are contested.

24. You’re proud to wear the “I voted” sticker that they give you after you vote.

25. George W. Bush said that it’s your duty to vote.

26. The president's wife or mother called you and asked you to vote.

27. You get a rush out of wielding political power.

28. You think that a politician is cute, or you like the way he kisses his wife, or you like the earth tones he wears, etc.

29. You saw a campaign sign that made you feel patriotic because of its flag motif, or that made you feel good because it had a catchy slogan on it, such as "the courage to lead" or "neighborhoods first."

30. The political ads on TV and radio that cater to the lowest common denominator don't insult your intelligence.

31. You don’t mind your name and other personal information being on a government list, which will come in handy if the government wants to summon you for jury duty, draft you into the military, audit your income tax returns, collect information about you, or send you to an internment camp.



I find it interesting how you can make a libertarian argument against voting based on the fact that it is, in essence, forcing one's will on others(even if that will is a libertarian government). Good thing I'm not a libertarian anymore and no longer accept the "natural rights" philosophy, or I might actually be compelled to consider this.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Silversoul]
    #7146107 - 07/08/07 01:39 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

#3 is enough for me. I consider anarchists to be an untapped food source.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7146763 - 07/08/07 04:36 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The "forcing one's will on others" argument doesn't hold up under a lot of circumstances. For instance, by voting for a platform that removes restrictions which others have intentionally placed (a libertarian plank then, in some sense or another, whether it's gay marriage or gun control) you are in fact removing the imposition of will.

To say that removing an imposition of will is an imposition of will strays into the land of extreme logical relativism, and it's confounding to boot.


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FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7147127 - 07/08/07 06:07 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

There are protections in the Constitution against the phenomenon known as "majority tyranny". Too bad they are often ignored.


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OfflineLordSenate
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Mark_W]
    #7147338 - 07/08/07 07:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I would rather vote for a lesser evil, then not vote at all.


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OfflineMark_W
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: LordSenate]
    #7147918 - 07/08/07 09:32 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

my favorite quote regarding that is: "He who chooses the lesser to two evils, quickly forgets that he chose evil".
the point being that you never have to choose evil and it is never beneficient to do so (even if it appears so on the surface of things).


--------------------
Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (07/08/07 09:38 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Redstorm]
    #7147970 - 07/08/07 09:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I suggest not listening to the original post and to go out and vote in the upcoming election.




I think I'll disregard your suggestion and continue not to vote and not to compromise my personal beliefs.

The original post rocks. I have been doing this successfully for years.

My motto is. You have no right to complain IF you vote.


--------------------

"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous

“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Icelander]
    #7148293 - 07/08/07 11:06 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

That's an outrageous motto. The only time you have no right to complain is if you vote for the person causing the problems or you fail to make any effort to keep that person from causing that person to create those problems in the first place.


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Redstorm]
    #7148311 - 07/08/07 11:10 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
That's an outrageous motto. The only time you have no right to complain is if you vote for the person causing the problems or you fail to make any effort to keep that person from causing that person to create those problems in the first place.



:yesnod:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Redstorm]
    #7148321 - 07/08/07 11:11 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

That's an outrageous motto.
:rofl2::monkeydance:

You don't seem to have a clue that the whole political system is the problem. That's the point of the original post that you seem to  completely miss. Not too surprising though.

Ever since I was a kid in the 60s folk such as you been telling everyone to vote or else. The system (if you take a look at history) ebbs and flows in the same state of decay and does not change because people vote for whomever. The whole organism is cancerous IMO and I'll leave it to you patriots to save the world by perpetuating that dysfunctional system.;)


Edited by Icelander (07/08/07 11:32 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Icelander]
    #7148443 - 07/08/07 11:30 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the whole political system is the problem




Which is able to be changed if one does not sit on their ass and complain without doing anything.

Quote:

Not too surprising though.




Are you implying something concerning my intelligence which I should take offense to?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who intend to vote in the upcoming elections....please reconsider [Re: Redstorm]
    #7148479 - 07/08/07 11:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Ever since I was a kid in the 60s folk such as you been telling everyone to vote or else. The system (if you take a look at history) ebbs and flows in the same state of decay and does not change because people vote for whomever. The whole organism is cancerous IMO and I'll leave it to you patriots to save the world by perpetuating that dysfunctional system.;)

Are you implying something concerning my intelligence which I should take offense to?

I never used your name and intelligence in the same sentence.


--------------------

"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous

“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson


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