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 Flop Johnson
Praise Skatballah
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 13,789
Loc: TX
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 A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. 
#6947984 - 05/21/07 06:23 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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In light of several topics discussing suicide related deaths and their causes I thought I would try to make a crack at some of the misconceptions about it.
1. Suicide is not a selfish act
- To the family and friends of a person who has committed suicide, it seems as if it could be nothing but selfish. However, a suicidal person's thinking does not revolve around the self like a narcissist's does. To a suicidal person they view their lives as being a burden on those that they care about, and their absence (as they view it) would be doing their loved ones a favor. It's hard to understand without having been there yourself, but the self-loathing that is accompanied with a suicide; mindset is unbearable - imagine waking up every morning and doing nothing but telling yourself how much you hate every aspect of your own personality. Depression is cyclical and feeds off of itself.
2. Expecting a depressed/suicidal person to "snap out of it." Or to seek help on their own.
-Simply put, this is impossible. First of all suicidal people usually have an accompanying depression disorder, making "snapping out of it" not an option. Going back to suicidal mindsets, they view themselves as being a burden on others - so to go asking for help (whining in their minds) is just not an option either. If you know someone that you are worried about in this regard then you need to sincerely sit down and talk to them - it may be a downer, but they will greatly appreciate the talk, and the fact that someone approached them about it they may be encouraged to seek professional help.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,209
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948024 - 05/21/07 06:38 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Suicide is not a selfish act"
That's a pretty bold blanket-statement. Are you claiming to have been inside the head of every person with a suicidal mindset? Are you trying to tell us that every single person who has committed suicide did so not out of a deep need to relieve whatever anguish, grief, or hopelessness they may experience daily and rather to do "their loved ones a favor"?
Despite your good intentions with this post, I am overwhelmed at the arrogance of such a statement.
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Flop Johnson
Praise Skatballah
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 13,789
Loc: TX
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: DNKYD]
#6948033 - 05/21/07 06:42 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do you not see the correlation?
It's not as if they have a constant migraine and they are so selfish that they kill themselves to cure it, that anguish that you speak of is caused by the way they view their own life - and that has a whole lot to do with how people's family and friends think of them (as perceived by them).
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,209
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948066 - 05/21/07 06:50 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Again, you are claiming to know the underlying reasons for every suicide with one blanket statement.
I have thought of suicide before. What led me to these thoughts had nothing to do with my family or friends. They both love me and I love them. My previous actions, the consequences I faced and are yet to face, and my situation at the time were the only things leading me to that mindset. One of the things that little voice of reason spoke to me was how much grief and suffering my suicide would bring to my friends and family. Had I carried out any plans I may have had for suicide I would indeed be committing a selfish act.
So I say again, your initial statement reeks of arrogance.
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,041
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948097 - 05/21/07 06:59 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well, I used to feel sympathetic towards people who kill themselves or want to kill themselves. Pretty much because I was always the suicidal one.
Then last weekend I saw a guy shoot himself in the head. I was tripping at the time. So I have mixed views about suicide now based on what I have seen. I am 100% sure that the guy who I witnessed self-destruct was a selfish asshole. He may have been hurting. There is no denying that. But why so public of a death? He wanted to be seen. He did it in front of everyone. He didn't care how it would impact the people who were there. (he was not tripping) Guess he wanted a way out and he took it. I'm glad he's dead. 
I do feel suicide is a selfish decision, but I don't attach the same negative connotations to the word "selfish" as most people. How can suicide not be selfish? You're trying to relieve yourself of yourself. Even if you make the arguement that suiciders sometimes try to kill themselves for the benefit of other people (not wanting to be a drain, etc) that still seems selfish to me because nobody truly knows what other people think. You're not doing people a "favor" by killing yourself and if you think other people would truly be better off if you were dead then you're deluded.
On the other hand, I truly feel that people who want to die, really should. You wanna die? Do it. Be selfish. Make the decision. We'll move on. Why are you here if you don't want to live?
But for fucks sake, have the balls to do it privately. Maybe with some dignity. It's selfish to thrust the suicide experience on people who have no part in your final act. What makes you think we want to see it? It's selfish of you to assume we do.
(and when I say 'you' I'm talking about Michael, the suicide that I witnessed)
Sorry for any cynical tone or conflicting messages...I'm still integrating my experience from last weekend. It was and is very difficult to process and make sense of what I saw. Thanks for the opportunity.
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,041
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948112 - 05/21/07 07:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MoeRon said:
Do you not see the correlation?
It's not as if they have a constant migraine and they are so selfish that they kill themselves to cure it, that anguish that you speak of is caused by the way they view their own life - and that has a whole lot to do with how people's family and friends think of them (as perceived by them).
Do you not see how that's selfish? So concerned with how the self is viewed by OTHERS that it blocks out everything else and the person wants to kill themselves as a result?
Delusion of the self. The term selfishness applies.
It's not BAD to be selfish. Almost every aspect of survival can be attributed towards selfishness. We can't help but be selfish if we are ourselves. It's just a side effect of being human.
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Flop Johnson
Praise Skatballah
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 13,789
Loc: TX
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: DNKYD]
#6948133 - 05/21/07 07:09 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't intentionally make that so specific, but youre telling me you didnt think about your familys opinion of you at all? In my situation I knew my parents would be sad, but the idea of the shame that they felt (or feel I guess) of me was overwhelming.
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Flop Johnson
Praise Skatballah
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 13,789
Loc: TX
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: MOTH]
#6948152 - 05/21/07 07:13 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MOTH said:
Delusion of the self. The term selfishness applies.
It's not BAD to be selfish. Almost every aspect of survival can be attributed towards selfishness. We can't help but be selfish if we are ourselves. It's just a side effect of being human.
Quote:
MoeRon said:
However, a suicidal person's thinking does not revolve around the self like a narcissist's does
I get that it is still is a form of being selfish, but so is most of survival as you said. It's just not your day-to-day idea of a selfish person.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,209
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948175 - 05/21/07 07:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, the feelings and perceptions of others towards me played no role in the manifestation of my suicidal mindset. I know my family is proud of me and whatever path I take and that they love me unconditionally.
One of the things that dissuaded me from going through with anything of the sort was, like I said before, the pain and suffering I would cause to those around me. Had I gone through with it, regardless of the guilt I would feel because of the emotional mess I'd leave behind, it would undeniably be considered a selfish act.
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,041
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948267 - 05/21/07 07:42 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MoeRon said:
Quote:
MOTH said:
Delusion of the self. The term selfishness applies.
It's not BAD to be selfish. Almost every aspect of survival can be attributed towards selfishness. We can't help but be selfish if we are ourselves. It's just a side effect of being human.
Quote:
MoeRon said:
However, a suicidal person's thinking does not revolve around the self like a narcissist's does
I get that it is still is a form of being selfish, but so is most of survival as you said. It's just not your day-to-day idea of a selfish person.
What? What's my day-to-day idea of a "selfish person?" I only have myself to go by so I don't know what you're saying here. Are you disagreeing with yourself now that suiciders aren't selfish? In your first post you said that suicide isn't selfish and that only narcissists are selfish. You made pretty much a blanket statement by saying that. I am responding to that blanket statement by pointing out that suicide is selfish based on the fact that we are only ever ourselves and that throwing another label out there in an effort to contrast mindsets(narcissist) does nothing except confuse the original agenda of your post, which is to tell us that suicidal people aren't selfish and need to be spoon-fed love, compassion and healing by others since they are just too down in the dumps to do anything about their unhappiness themselves.
I'm a little disgusted by my take on that. Maybe it's still just the anger towards Michael talking. You can fling open the door but you can't make people walk inside. Time to go and thanks for the read. I may be back later.
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 freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
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Last seen: 1 year, 24 days
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: DNKYD]
#6948497 - 05/21/07 08:39 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said:
Again, you are claiming to know the underlying reasons for every suicide with one blanket statement.
I have thought of suicide before. What led me to these thoughts had nothing to do with my family or friends. They both love me and I love them.
Agreed. I've thought of suicide countless times and it's never about my family and friends. It IS about self-loathing but...that's just it. SELF-loathing. I wanted MYself to die. In fact the #1 thing that keeps the thoughts from manifesting any farther than just pure pondering is the fact that my parents would be devastated.
So I 100% disagree with the OP.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,194
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6948835 - 05/21/07 09:47 PM (6 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's not as if they have a constant migraine and they are so selfish that they kill themselves to cure it
Actually that does happen...the condition is called "cluster headaches" and the pain can be so severe that people have killed themselves to get rid of it.
Ask Phread....
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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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Spooge
The Nutter
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 5,189
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Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: MOTH]
#6954435 - 05/23/07 12:37 AM (6 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Then last weekend I saw a guy shoot himself in the head. I was tripping at the time. So I have mixed views about suicide now based on what I have seen. I am 100% sure that the guy who I witnessed self-destruct was a selfish asshole. He may have been hurting. There is no denying that. But why so public of a death? He wanted to be seen. He did it in front of everyone. He didn't care how it would impact the people who were there. (he was not tripping) Guess he wanted a way out and he took it. I'm glad he's dead.
That's savage. I don't know how or if I could handle such a sight/event while tripping.
Are you okay?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,492
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6955746 - 05/23/07 10:42 AM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
MoeRon said:
In light of several topics discussing suicide related deaths and their causes I thought I would try to make a crack at some of the misconceptions about it.
1. Suicide is not a selfish act
- To the family and friends of a person who has committed suicide, it seems as if it could be nothing but selfish. However, a suicidal person's thinking does not revolve around the self like a narcissist's does. To a suicidal person they view their lives as being a burden on those that they care about, and their absence (as they view it) would be doing their loved ones a favor.
I know everyone has already torn your statement to shreds, but I have to put in my 2 cents.
When I was at my rock bottom, I was nothing but selfish. My thinking entirely revolved around myself. I was completely wrapped up in my own shit and nothing else. I made life miserable for my family, but I didn't realize what a burden it was until I was past that stage of my life. I toyed with the idea of suicide, even threatened it, but knew I couldn't do it because it would not be doing my family a favor at all. I wished I was dead, but couldn't kill myself.
Quote:
2. Expecting a depressed/suicidal person to "snap out of it." Or to seek help on their own.
This I agree with. Suicidal people can't be reasoned with, because that kind of behavior is completely unreasonable. It is a staunch refusal to accept responsibility for one's life. Nothing got better for me until I did that.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,041
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Spooge]
#6956694 - 05/23/07 02:55 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
entityexperiment said:
Quote:
Then last weekend I saw a guy shoot himself in the head. I was tripping at the time. So I have mixed views about suicide now based on what I have seen. I am 100% sure that the guy who I witnessed self-destruct was a selfish asshole. He may have been hurting. There is no denying that. But why so public of a death? He wanted to be seen. He did it in front of everyone. He didn't care how it would impact the people who were there. (he was not tripping) Guess he wanted a way out and he took it. I'm glad he's dead.
That's savage. I don't know how or if I could handle such a sight/event while tripping.
Are you okay?
I'm working on it, thanks for asking.  I figure it was a powerful learning experience I must never forget.
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DrCamacho89
Mazel Tuff
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: MOTH]
#6957160 - 05/23/07 04:48 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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I think it is important for a suicidal person to realize they are not alone in their thoughts. Depression is so isolating and internal that it is very difficult to see it in that light. You feel like you are the only person alive who can relate to what you're feeling. The truth is, depression and mental health issues are so demonized in our society, that one will tend to keep those feelings locked up to the rest of the world out of risk of being judged for weakness.
Suicide is a selfish act in my opinion. I was suicidal at one point in my life and the ONLY thing that kept me from throwing myself in front of a bus was thinking about how my family would be devastated and the external consequences of that action.
I understand about the feelings of guilt and burden, but really, that is what family and friends are for; to be there for you in your time of need. You just need to make sure to return the favor when you are in the position to do so.
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"The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"
Edited by DrCamacho89 (05/23/07 04:51 PM)
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Newbie
User of semicolons.
Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 23,015
Loc: Suburbia
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#6958929 - 05/23/07 11:20 PM (6 years, 29 days ago) |
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Suicide is nothing other than a selfish act. It's the ultimate thing you can do to yourself. The last and final thing you can do to your body is take it out of this plane of existence, and making that decision when there's people that care about you and actually value your life is a selfish thing to do.
I agree with WhiskeyClone that the second part of your statement is true. Depression can get such a firm grip around you that you're pretty much helpless and you're forced to commit that selfish act.
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unlegendary
Depressive
Registered: 07/17/09
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: Flop Johnson]
#10697121 - 07/18/09 12:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MoeRon said:
In light of several topics discussing suicide related deaths and their causes I thought I would try to make a crack at some of the misconceptions about it.
1. Suicide is not a selfish act
- To the family and friends of a person who has committed suicide, it seems as if it could be nothing but selfish. However, a suicidal person's thinking does not revolve around the self like a narcissist's does. To a suicidal person they view their lives as being a burden on those that they care about, and their absence (as they view it) would be doing their loved ones a favor. It's hard to understand without having been there yourself, but the self-loathing that is accompanied with a suicide; mindset is unbearable - imagine waking up every morning and doing nothing but telling yourself how much you hate every aspect of your own personality. Depression is cyclical and feeds off of itself.
2. Expecting a depressed/suicidal person to "snap out of it." Or to seek help on their own.
-Simply put, this is impossible. First of all suicidal people usually have an accompanying depression disorder, making "snapping out of it" not an option. Going back to suicidal mindsets, they view themselves as being a burden on others - so to go asking for help (whining in their minds) is just not an option either. If you know someone that you are worried about in this regard then you need to sincerely sit down and talk to them - it may be a downer, but they will greatly appreciate the talk, and the fact that someone approached them about it they may be encouraged to seek professional help.
I've been suicidal and still am, but I've never tried because i didn't want to be a burden. I just have always hated my life. I didn't ask to be here and have attempted many times to get out of it. What is selfish is when others want me to stay alive until it's more convenient to them for me to die. We all die and this happy horse shit of insisting everyone remain alive until there is nothing medically capable of saving them is utter horse shit.
I'm 50 and have tried more times to die than most people have even thought about it. I'm sick and tired of failure and the next bastard who tries to drag me back into this miserable life is getting their ass kicked. Just let me go dammit!
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"Eat a big plate of jambalaya, head off to the can, and meditate on this, "defecating is more productive than praying."
[Todd Adamson]
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NothingIsReal
Stranger
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: unlegendary]
#10707102 - 07/20/09 01:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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How is suicide selfish?
I never asked to be born or to be put on this earth, if i dont like it and want to leave, I dont see how thats selfish.
I never asked to be made or to be put into this world, so why is it selfish if I want to leave.
Even tho i say that, i've be there many times and I would and will NEVER do it because i would never put the people who love me through the pain i know it would cause. I just couldn't, i know how people would feel and how much i would put my family through. Even in the worst emotional pain i would rather live in it then put my loved ones through me killing myself. That said, i still will never agree that it is selfish. Its not. I didnt ask to be here, so I should be able to leave as i wish.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya
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Posts: 2,642
Loc: Knowhere
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Re: A Couple of Misunderstandings About Suicide. [Re: NothingIsReal]
#10707417 - 07/20/09 03:01 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Selfish –adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.
I would think it depends on the motive and context for committing suicide to determine whether it was a selfish act or not. For example, in some countries, suicide is not a selfish act but rather is an act of protest or as a means to protect the honour of the collective/family/organisation. But this perspective is probably going outside the intended context outlined by the OP.
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