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 Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
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 Since we're on Global Warming this morning... 
#6774640 - 04/11/07 10:16 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17997788/site/newsweek/
Something to be considered to me, is the fact that other planets in our solar system are increasing in temperature as well. It would seem a bit strange to be all coincidence. Sure, we may be warming the earth, but how much?
A lot of politicians are blaming us humans for the entire ordeal, when it seems logical to me that this may not be the case. Our impact is probably fairly minimal, although it may still be there.
The average mean temperature of the earth has increased .6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial revolution.
At best, we're running off figures from ~150 years. And that's assuming that the ability to measure temperature 100 years ago is on par with those of today. Not likely. That .6 degrees could have a margain of error that we have no way of knowing.
Global warming as a whole feels like a tool of politicians. But, I must say that I support doing our part to protect the Earth, regardless of the reasoning behind it. But those who need a reason like global warming to do so, seem to be sheep. What other things can we convince people of...
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
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Last seen: 30 days, 35 minutes
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Kickle]
#6774741 - 04/11/07 10:50 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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aye aye cap'n.
totally agree. there are many factors which atribute to the fluctuation of global temperature, and we are in fact at the bottom trough of the temperature graph. It's expected to go up even without human influence.
there are many cyclic fluctuations on the Earth's orbit which directly affect climate such as precession, eccentricity, and obliquity all explained by the Milankovich equations. plus, you got tectonic effects, solar energy fluctuations, and all of the indirect effects of currents, ice sheets, vegetation, etc.
but i also look at the over-population and the air quality/pollution problems and think, 'this cant be good.' too many people, too many cars, blah blah blah
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 joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Kickle]
#6774759 - 04/11/07 10:55 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you think we couldn't accurately measure temperature 100 years ago, then you've got another thing coming. We've been able to accurately measure temperature since Mr. Daniel Fahrenheit perfected the mercury thermometer in the early 1700's. Not only that -- we can accurately measure temperatures back 650,000 years through ice-core samples.
A tool of politicians? Are you kidding? Most politicians who support action for global warming are largely unpopular in America. But let's just ignore the scientific consensus (read: people who much more about this than you would ever dream of) that global warming is a definite reality caused by humans with very serious and deadly effects yet to come.
I'll address a couple points in this dude's article.
"A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now." This is one of the most retarded assumptions regarding global warming I've ever read in my life. It makes me think of some specific politicians remarks when Gore visited congress recently: "Oh, it's freezing today in D.C. Global Warming won't be so bad after all. High five!" Have you ever been in 120F+ heat? Not us, not the plant-life, and not the animal-life has adapted in their millions of years of evolution to survive this kind of crazy weather that is already being experienced around the globe.
"meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing." Hey, fuck the tropics. Consistent category 4 and 5 hurricanes, which we've already begun to see, as a result of warmer water temperatures is nothing to worry about. This guy is an idiot.
It's true that there is no optimal temperature, but there is an optimal TREND. It's like a train that has always gone down the same tracks for hundreds of thousands of years -- and it's being derailed.
Quote:
But, I must say that I support doing our part to protect the Earth, regardless of the reasoning behind it. But those who need a reason like global warming to do so, seem to be sheep.
I'm trying to understand this statement, but I can't figure out what you are trying to say. To me, those who believe oil-company lobbyists and paid-off politicians over distinguished scientists are sheep.
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NobodyCares
Holy macaroni!
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 1,861
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6774790 - 04/11/07 11:04 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well first off, your statement about the unpopularity of politicians who scream, "The sky is falling!" is blatantly untrue. I bet that most if not all of the people who frequent this forum could name the politician who made a movie about global warming in the last year, as well as name the movie itself. Scientific consensus? There's a scientific consensus that the planet is getting warmer, and I really love your red herring here. The planet is getting warmer ergo WE MUST BE KILLING IT BY USING EVIL EVIL HYDROCARBONS! Your logic is flawed. Nobody has proven shit about human caused global warming, and I'm sure you can't provide a single peer-reviewed article to prove otherwise.
What 'crazy weather'? I have no idea how to address this point because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Do your research before calling scientists idiots. Research done in the last two months has determined that the trend towards more powerful hurricanes is a product of a natural cycle in the Earth's weather, it's not global warming any more than it's New Orleans being a den of iniquity or punishment from God for abortion.
Stop hopping on bandwagons and do some reading. 
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If you can be told what to see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. ~Boards of Canada
Now we see things, as in a mirror dimly, and we shall see each other face to face.
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At first there was a time, when I believed a kiss was just a kiss, no matter how I missed you...
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 11 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6774799 - 04/11/07 11:06 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Uh huh....
I no where said the measurements of temperature were innacurate in the past, rather that they weren't on par. Ever drive down the street and see all those signs that list the temperature? They are rarely ever the same, at least where I am.
And you're telling me Gore is unpopular in the US? Heh. And disaster science has long been a tool of business. Just take a look at all the marketing in this direction. It's far too early to jump to conclusions about global warming.
I don't give two craps what either side of the argument says.
CO2 levels trail the increase in temperature by 800 years. Going back thousands of years ice core samples show the same thing every time, when temperatures rise CO2 levels rise, in that order.
And again, the increase has been .6 degrees since the industrial revolution. Even if the readings are accurate, there is a LOT of things that could be causing this fluctuation rather than humans.
I've yet to see any argument as to why other planets in our solar system are also increasing in temperature. It's just kind of waved away, similar to how you didn't even address it in your post. It's very easy to make everything fit an agenda, especially when you ignore things.
Edited by Kickle (04/11/07 11:07 AM)
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Kickle]
#6774890 - 04/11/07 11:30 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Show me proof that the planets are warming, and the earth is also on par with the other planets warming. I've read research stating that variations in solar output have a negligent effect on earth's temperature due to the way our atmosphere functions.
The bottom line is that everything is speculation. Whether you believe or don't believe that we are causing global warming, IT IS ALL SPECULATION. But some speculations are more educated than others. But as it stands right now, nothing can really be PROVED.
Let's say that C02 levels do go above 700 or 800 PPM, which will happen sometime in the future if we don't slow our exponentially increasing use of fossil fuels. Are you willing to risk the possibility that the very strong correlation between temperature and C02 levels is indeed cause-effect? Or do you just not care?
There are plenty of other, good reasons to switch to non-polluting renewable energy resources if you're willing to risk the fate of the entire planet. 1)Political reasons: reduce our dependence on foreign oil companies that have the potential to destroy our economy. 2)Nature: Our pollution has changed the PH levels in ocean water so much that coral reefs are dying. Much of the ocean-life depends on coral reefs or depends on something that depends on coral reefs, and the chain keeps going. If we don't switch to other types of energy, much of the ocean life will die. But there will be a shit-load of huge jellyfish to fill the gap, which we are already beginning to see. Do you like to eat jellyfish?
Kickle, are you saying that those who won't ever believe in global warming don't have an agenda? Scientists, and the IPCC at that, don't ignore any data -- if that's what you think. Everything is brought to the table. I suggest you look into some of their data and conclusions.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,331
Last seen: 11 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6774962 - 04/11/07 11:49 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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This post is quite a bit different than your first. For starters, I am neither for or against global warming. Just like you, I feel it is all speculation.
That would mean that politicians are pushing an agenda if they pick a side.
This wasn't about scientists, really. I hope they can figure out the truth behind it. But when a theory gets blown out of proportion, and toted around as fact, it's a cause for concern. And the source of this to me is the politicians.
And as I stated, I'm all for protecting the Earth. I have no intention of doing anything less than before. However, I am afraid that our efforts to 'stop global warming' will do more harm than good.
Take for instance the Hybrid cars, which batteries operate on nickel. Nickel mines are VERY hard on the ecosystem.
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Oregon
The Gravedigger Smolkein
Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 36,143
Loc: Every Day Is Halloween
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Kickle]
#6774979 - 04/11/07 11:55 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Humans have less to do with global warming than the Sun.
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GreenScreen
bidibodi bidibu
Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 908
Loc: ation
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6775279 - 04/11/07 01:00 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
joker_man said:
IT IS ALL SPECULATION. But some speculations are more educated than others. But as it stands right now, nothing can really be PROVED
I don't understand what you're doing here. First you adamantly declare that global warming is a product of human action, then once you are presented with more information you defensively make this claim. If indeed this is true like you say, you have nothing more to support your side of the argument than NobodyCares has to support his side. This is like saying "we're all making guesses, but my guesses are better than yours because I say so".
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Oregon]
#6775294 - 04/11/07 01:05 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
CO2 levels trail the increase in temperature by 800 years. Going back thousands of years ice core samples show the same thing every time, when temperatures rise CO2 levels rise, in that order.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/
This explains that phenomenon far better than I ever could. It's a short read, so please take the time to read and understand it. Not everything has an immediate effect following the cause. If we could isolate every variable effecting temperature here on earth (and there are tons), then I believe that we could easily show that increases in C02 levels do in fact cause warmer temperatures.
It is speculation, but very educated speculation at that.
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6775352 - 04/11/07 01:22 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
and we are in fact at the bottom trough of the temperature graph. It's expected to go up even without human influence.
Wrong. We are at the top of the hill and still going up.
http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/programs/atmosphere-energy/climate-change/vostok-ice-core.jpg
Note the marks on that graph. This is just ice-core data until 1950. Not much more ice has formed since then. The end of the graph is 1950, when c02 is 270PPM. Today c02 is over 380PPM. That's a SHARP rise from this cycle the earth has experienced.
THis graph might put things into perspective a little better.
http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/large/05.24.jpg
See the mid evil warming period? It is nothing compared to what we are experiencing now and what is projected to happen in the future.
Again, the projections are speculation, but very educated speculation at that.
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: GreenScreen]
#6775380 - 04/11/07 01:28 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GreenScreen said:
Quote:
joker_man said:
IT IS ALL SPECULATION. But some speculations are more educated than others. But as it stands right now, nothing can really be PROVED
I don't understand what you're doing here. First you adamantly declare that global warming is a product of human action, then once you are presented with more information you defensively make this claim. If indeed this is true like you say, you have nothing more to support your side of the argument than NobodyCares has to support his side. This is like saying "we're all making guesses, but my guesses are better than yours because I say so".
It's not at all like that. Guesses are nothing like educated speculation. He was asking me to provide concrete proof. There is no concrete proof. It is all speculation. I'm saying that what I believe is more likely to be correct because of the sheer number of high caliber people in climatology/meteorology fields who would agree with the things I've stated.
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funnybunny
Saboten Bomber
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6775420 - 04/11/07 01:34 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
joker_man said:
Quote:
CO2 levels trail the increase in temperature by 800 years. Going back thousands of years ice core samples show the same thing every time, when temperatures rise CO2 levels rise, in that order.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/
This explains that phenomenon far better than I ever could. It's a short read, so please take the time to read and understand it. Not everything has an immediate effect following the cause. If we could isolate every variable effecting temperature here on earth (and there are tons), then I believe that we could easily show that increases in C02 levels do in fact cause warmer temperatures.
It is speculation, but very educated speculation at that.
The best thing is that the text doesn't explain a shit. It says it CO2 *could* be the amplifier and make the feedback. Well, it could still be just following the stupid warming.
BTW, both CH4 concentration and sunspot activity correlate a looooooot better with temperature than CO2, and without lag.
In any case, given a series of events, the last one I'll bet for to be the cause is the last one that happened. It is that, or a CO2-Occam worldwide im-gonna-destroy-the-world conspiration.
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CarharttKidd
Strangest
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: funnybunny]
#6775589 - 04/11/07 02:10 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Global warming is a myth. You guys might like to read Owsley's article on it.
http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506009
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: CarharttKidd]
#6775646 - 04/11/07 02:21 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Holy tap dancing Christ People are willfully ignorant. The Science is clear, it's not a myth. Wake the fuck up America. The rest of the world is waiting.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,197
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Kickle]
#6775664 - 04/11/07 02:26 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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The powers that be are using global warming as a Trojan horse to bring even more disastrous effects to our environment. Palm oil plantations being planted for biofuels are destroying countless acres of natural rain forests, releasing even more GHG. Meanwhile foodstock supplies are being challenged by incredible growth in the ethanol industry (not from cellulosic methods, mind you).
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#6775669 - 04/11/07 02:27 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Exactly, Psilocybeingzz. People don't want to believe that what they're doing has adverse effects on the environment -- despite any amount of evidence that says otherwise. This is especially true in America.
http://www.thebear.org/
Why should anyone believe this dude? I could pick apart his arguments one-by-one, but I'm not going to waste my time. Beyond his argument, he has very poor English skills.
It is easy to simply state things without providing any evidence.
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joker_man
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 217
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: DNKYD]
#6775686 - 04/11/07 02:31 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said:
The powers that be are using global warming as a Trojan horse to bring even more disastrous effects to our environment. Palm oil plantations being planted for biofuels are destroying countless acres of natural rain forests, releasing even more GHG. Meanwhile foodstock supplies are being challenged by incredible growth in the ethanol industry (not from cellulosic methods, mind you).
A few scattered cases do nothing to distort the reality of global warming.
You think fossil fuels are harmless to the environment? You think mining operations are harmless to the environment? Give me a break. Whatever you describe is insignificant compared to what has been done by fossil fuel and mining companies.
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CarharttKidd
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6775690 - 04/11/07 02:32 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't have time to argue with you at this moment, but in 20 hours or so, its on.
Owsley's opinion is one that many in this community trust. He is a very smart man.
I could get some data from some more conservative thinkers in this world, but then the vast right wing conspiracy theory statements would start flowing like water.
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Wheels
Head...
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Re: Since we're on Global Warming this morning... [Re: joker_man]
#6775715 - 04/11/07 02:39 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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My experience has taught me to question authority, whether that authority is political, "moral," or scientific. I'm with the skeptics here, something just doesn't feel right about the way the scientific community is approaching the issue.
I actually consider myself an environmentalist by the way, and even if we aren't causing warming, there are much more immediate reasons why large scale pollution of air and water, and overpopulation are just not good for humanity.
But the jury really is out on global warming, I have not seen much sound science in support of it honestly, just speculation based on the nebulous assertion that the "greenhouse effect" is something we understand instead of a dramatic oversimplification of a complex dynamic system.
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I don't understand... who could kill a man, in the name of peace?
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