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 mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Outside Your Window
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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 If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist?
#6744490 - 04/03/07 10:55 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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I know the answer, but I just wanted to see other peoples thoughts. Please do NOT preach at me.
MM
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Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Outside Your Window
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744500 - 04/03/07 10:58 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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This is the long verion of the question:
Either God is all powerful and chooses not to stop evil
or
God wishes to stop evil but cannot
or
a third choice
MM
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Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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 Silversoul
PleromaticExplorer
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 15,297
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744511 - 04/03/07 11:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikemushroom said:
God wishes to stop evil but cannot
I believe in some variation of this option. I believe that we, as manifestations of God, must do God's work raising up the divine sparks within the world. Our ability to conquer evil is increased by our mystical closeness to our divine nature. So in a sense, when we put forth the right effort with the right intention and the right practice, God meets us halfway.
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"I happen to be the CEO of the Committee for Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal, and we actually are offering $10,000 to anybody who can produce anything that is totally normal in all respects, or even average." -- Robert Anton Wilson
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evolprim
human
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 1,225
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744518 - 04/03/07 11:05 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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maybe evil doesnt exist and is just in the mind of beholder?
maybe because humans have abused god's free will to create evil?
maybe god creates what we call evil but it is really "love in disguise"for instance what seems to us to be a burden may be a growing oppurtunity and a chance to make us more loving compassionate beings.
i personally think that all 3 hold some truth to them. but i think we can still create a great and ("non-evil") life with the power of love of god and using our own free will in a "good way"
any other thoughts/opinions
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younikrawn
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 399
Loc: Corvallis, OR
Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744535 - 04/03/07 11:09 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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How can there be a God (good) without a devil (bad)?
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Don't dream it;be it
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mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Outside Your Window
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: younikrawn]
#6744547 - 04/03/07 11:14 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
younikrawn said:
How can there be a God (good) without a devil (bad)?
This suggests duality. That principal is in contradiction with God.
You must remember that Satan was, at one time, a very important angel. This is at a time before evil, before Lucifer was booted out of heaven.
MM
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Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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younikrawn
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 399
Loc: Corvallis, OR
Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744607 - 04/03/07 11:37 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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God is everything. If God is infinite how can he not be both good and bad? Call it a duality... I see it as a balance. The ying and yang of existence if you will.
There was bad and evil force in the world before Lucifer became "Satan". Remember the serpent in the tree of knowledge? And this "Satan" is still a part of God. He was God's creation....
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Don't dream it;be it
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mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: younikrawn]
#6744670 - 04/03/07 11:55 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
younikrawn said:
God is everything. If God is infinite how can he not be both good and bad? Call it a duality... I see it as a balance. The ying and yang of existence if you will.
There was bad and evil force in the world before Lucifer became "Satan". Remember the serpent in the tree of knowledge? And this "Satan" is still a part of God. He was God's creation....
Problems with this theory:
1. Satan was the serpent. That is clear.
2. When did Satan get cast out of heaven? The Bible does not tell us. You cannot make up a convienient timeline that has no biblical foundation. Its like suggesting how long Adam and Eve were in Eden.
3. Satan is not a part of God. He is a separate entity. The Bible makes this clear.
4. It makes abolutely no sense to say that God has an evil side when much of the OT is devoted to a strict law and defeating worshippers of Baal. I guess under your theory it is for God' glory that people go to "hell".
This is all I want to say about this now; otherwise, I will be answering the quetion that I posed.
MM
--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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younikrawn
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 399
Loc: Corvallis, OR
Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6744779 - 04/04/07 12:21 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikemushroom said:
Problems with this theory:
1. Satan was the serpent. That is clear.
2. When did Satan get cast out of heaven? The Bible does not tell us. You cannot make up a convienient timeline that has no biblical foundation. Its like suggesting how long Adam and Eve were in Eden.
3. Satan is not a part of God. He is a separate entity. The Bible makes this clear.
4. It makes abolutely no sense to say that God has an evil side when much of the OT is devoted to a strict law and defeating worshippers of Baal. I guess under your theory it is for God' glory that people go to "hell".
This is all I want to say about this now; otherwise, I will be answering the quetion that I posed.
MM
1. Where in the Bible does it tell you that the serpent was Satan? I've never read that Serpent was related to Lucifer in any way from any Bible. From ministers and clergy, yes, but not from the Bible itself.
2 I don't know what timeline you are referring to
3. I think you missed my point here. We are all part of God, even Lucifer. God created us, loves us, cares for us.... Just like we care for our own children. Most parents would agree that their children are still part of them, even when they grow up into adult.
4. If God is all-powerful, why did he let worshipers of Baal exist in the first place? Why not destroy them with divine intervention? Those questions aside. If God created everything then he certainly created Baal, Lucifer, all the evil forces in the universe, correct? Why would God create anything evil unless that inherent evil is part of God himself?
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Don't dream it;be it
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 16,302
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6745246 - 04/04/07 06:15 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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> I know the answer, but I just wanted to see other peoples thoughts.
The concept of good and evil are artifacts of duality. With our inflated ego, we tend to assume the nature of Gd to be the nature of man rather than allowing for Gd that exists beyond the constraints of duality.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 726
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: Seuss]
#6745580 - 04/04/07 09:27 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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If God created everything then he certainly created Baal, Lucifer, all the evil forces in the universe, correct? Why would God create anything evil unless that inherent evil is part of God himself?
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."
--Gangaji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Outside Your Window
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: younikrawn]
#6745694 - 04/04/07 10:13 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
younikrawn said:
Quote:
mikemushroom said:
Problems with this theory:
1. Satan was the serpent. That is clear.
2. When did Satan get cast out of heaven? The Bible does not tell us. You cannot make up a convienient timeline that has no biblical foundation. Its like suggesting how long Adam and Eve were in Eden.
3. Satan is not a part of God. He is a separate entity. The Bible makes this clear.
4. It makes abolutely no sense to say that God has an evil side when much of the OT is devoted to a strict law and defeating worshippers of Baal. I guess under your theory it is for God' glory that people go to "hell".
This is all I want to say about this now; otherwise, I will be answering the quetion that I posed.
MM
1. Where in the Bible does it tell you that the serpent was Satan? I've never read that Serpent was related to Lucifer in any way from any Bible. From ministers and clergy, yes, but not from the Bible itself.
2 I don't know what timeline you are referring to
3. I think you missed my point here. We are all part of God, even Lucifer. God created us, loves us, cares for us.... Just like we care for our own children. Most parents would agree that their children are still part of them, even when they grow up into adult.
4. If God is all-powerful, why did he let worshipers of Baal exist in the first place? Why not destroy them with divine intervention? Those questions aside. If God created everything then he certainly created Baal, Lucifer, all the evil forces in the universe, correct? Why would God create anything evil unless that inherent evil is part of God himself?
Answers:
1.It is a given. Look at Gen. 3:15. The phrase "and you shall bruise him on the heel" refers to Satan's repeated attempt to defeat Christ during his life here on earth. "He shall bruise you on the head" foreshadows Satan's defeat when Christ rose from the dead. A bruise on the heel is not deadly; but a crushing blow to the head is. Already God was revealing his plan to defeat Satan.
2.Exactly. There is no timeline in this respect. The OT is not in chronological order either. An example: Job is believed to be the first book written because it is the only OT book that does not mention any patriarch (such as Abraham or Moses).
3.We all were created by God, yes. But to suggest that we are one with God would suggest that we are part of the trinity. I think we are in agreement here, just a miscommunication.
4.God creates, the devil perverses. The tree of knowledge was, in reality, God's way of giving man a choice to follow him or not. This is free will. The word Eden means paradise/perfection. When Adam and Eve chose to partake of the fruit, the first sin of mankind happened which brought about a curse. This curse got Adam and Eve kicked out of perfection since they were now tainted. This is how evil exists-man's free will. Yes, Satan seems to be the very face of evil, but no one can use the old, "the devil made me do it" excuse.
The short answer: free will.
Evil exists because Adam and Eve, a mankind's representative, screwed up. The Bible makes it clear that everything bad that happens is a direct result of this. Evil happens because man, on his own, is born into in. It is only by the grace of God that one can be saved.
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Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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mikemushroom
Castaneda Fan
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 597
Loc: Outside Your Window
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6745750 - 04/04/07 10:30 AM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Genesis 1:1 says that everything God created was good.
Many people automatically blame God for the evil in the world when, in fact, its origin wan't directly from God- it was from humans and angels (Satan; Isaiah 14:12; 1 Timothy 3:6; Jude 6-7).
Why did God give us free choice? It makes our love for God more meaningful (Matthew 23:37). We would not have a choice in love for Christ which would mean that salvation would not be possible. Salvation depends on our deciion to love and receive Christ (Romans 10:9-10).
MM
--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.
Read his library of books to expand your mind.
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 296
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: mikemushroom]
#6746827 - 04/04/07 02:51 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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because good cannot exist without evil.... What makes something good??? only evil which it can be compared to... They both complete each other... 
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Suffering alone exists, no one who suffers.
Deeds alone exist, but no doer;
The path there is, but no one who treads it.
Nirvana exists, but no one who attains it.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: Mastamike1118]
#6747391 - 04/04/07 05:14 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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All things are ordained according to God's wisdom and decree. Without sin and wickedness how can mercy, righteousness and love be displayed?
All things are ordained so that God's glory can be revealed, sin is an integral part of the plan.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 17,558
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: fivepointer]
#6747498 - 04/04/07 05:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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A few things.
One, what does 'god' have to do with the bible?
Two, the so-called god of that bible claims to be evil and good, denying the existance of a devil(Amos 3:6).
Third, Satan wasn't 'cast out' of heaven. That is catholic doctrine. Satan is one of the sons of the god of the bible(Job 1:6). And while I'm on the subject of Job, it wasn't satan that fucked Job's eyes out, it was god. Read the book of Job. It will only take a few minutes and is quite disgusting if you somehow think the god of the bible is in any way good. He took his 'most faithful servant' and killed his family, destroyed his home and crops, gave him boils all over his body, blah blah blah, all because he was trying to win a bet with satan.....Some god.
Fourth, 'god' turned Lot's wife to a pillar of salt because she looked back on the city she loved, but later when Lot himself got drunk and fucked the shit out of his own daughters all was fine and dandy.... (Genesis 19) Again, someone tell me this 'god' is good???
Fifth, this god brought a flood and killed every living thing, but later was so sorry for that 'great evil' he did that he put a rainbow in the sky as a promise to never again destroy the earth.(Genesis 8: 20-22) Now, the christians and the new testament say he's going to destroy it with fire. Oops, he only promised not to destroy it with water, I guess fire is ok.
Sixth, if satan was 'the serpent' then why does jesus tell us to be 'wise as serpents'? The serpent was and always has been a symbol of intelligence. That's why the serpent told eve it was ok to eat the fruit. That 'garden of eden' story is just a retelling of a much more ancient tale where the serpent was the hero of the story, not the villian.
I could go on and on, but that's enough. Believe in God all you want, but just so you don't ask me to believe that murder in the bible is God. He's an impostor, and quite the evil one at that.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member".
Mark Twain, Woody Allen, Groucho Marx, and anyone else who wishes to claim credit for the quote.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,233
Loc: South Florida
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6747755 - 04/04/07 07:01 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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The "Shining One," or serpent on the Tree of Gnosis [Knowledge] of Good and Evil was only later, in Christian times, identified with the Hebrew Aversary [Satan]. Just as Lucifer [Light Bearer] - a title that was annexed to some of the gods and goddesses of antiquity (like Diana Lucifera), was later demonized like every other spiritual entity from antiquity, except for certain celestial beings, the lowest of which on the hierarchy were angles. There were early Christians who also saw the "Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves," as well as Jesus' reference to being "lifted up" on the cross, but also in that bit of symbolism, a parallel to the healing bronze serpent on a staff that Moses "lifted up" in the wilderness and which cured those with faith, who were dying of heavy metal poisoning (having been forced to drink gold from the golden calf). I own a shirt from Cafe Press which depicts the Gnostic crucified serpent on a Tau cross - an early Gnostic Christian symbol for Wisdom, Logos, Healing Savior.
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version): "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Interpret as you will, this is the verse.
Carl Jung tried to show the psychological blindspot of those who believe in a God of sweetness and light - alone. Satan is God's Shadow, Jung said. The brighter the Light, the darker the Shadow. Evil is relative to the pain and suffering that mortal humans can experience, not the Eternal God and Author of all there is. On the other hand, there is the mythos of the rebellion in Heaven, wherein 1/3 of all the Heavenly Host rebel against God and a battle ensues in which Lucifer [Light bearer] and the 1/3 are thrown from Heaven into Hell, which is said to be within the Earth. The Western church says it was Pride, but the Eastern church which still recognizes the Books of Enoch, says it was Lust (Enochian Books describe how fallen angels lusted after human women, mated with them and produced "giants"; taught women the 'enchanting arts' of cosmetics, and taught men how to forge weapons).
The point is, that even in God's 'abode,' evil dwells. This is important metaphysical and transpersonal psychological material. Heaven is usually depicted as a 'place,' but Heaven is sometimes synonymous with the very Being of God (e.g., Matthew didn't like "KIngdom of God" because Jews avoided the writing of any of the Names of G-d and so he changed it to "Kingdom of Heaven." If the rebellion 'in Heaven' is actually a rebellion 'in God,' then Satan and the fallen angels are 'autonomous complexes' within God Himself! In humans, autonomous complexes are parts of the psyche that take on a life of their own. In fiction autonomous complexes of artificial intelligence become Agent Smith in 'The Matrix').
Let me just say that the Bible has everything to do with God, but let me also add that people must do what the Reverend John Shelby Spong urges in one of his books whose title says it all: Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism.
There are OTHER interpretations of Biblical writ. Do NOT unconsciously accept the traditional interpretations as the ONLY interpretation. There are doctrines created in the first centuries of Christianity that essentially enslaved the multitudes of illiterate and superstitious people. Eventually the Catholic Church made possession by lay people of the Bible punishable by death! Sin and Guilt and eternal damnation only remedied by compliant, paying peasants. The end did not occur in the same generation of Jesus (as promised) or of Paul's who followed by maybe 40 years.
Could it be that the interpretation of Jesus has been very very wrong? Could Jesus, the man, have been wrong in stating the end of history? Yes, if one expects historical events, No, if one expects metaphysical events. Why, if Jesus made a point (the Jesus of the Gospel authors) of saying that His Kingdom was 'not of this world,' do people continue to look to historical events in this world to back up the words of Jesus? The end of days, the end of time does occur in the Inner World, to the Inner Man!!! This is not something that belongs to myth alone, this is The Shroomery for God's sake where most everyone has taken a life-changing Entheogenic Excursion - a trip people, a very heavy trip - in which time vanishes, identity vanishes, but Light and Awareness continue to radiate from all Eternity. Maybe one has tasted Eternal Life, maybe Hell. Someone out there must KNOW what I'm talking about! How about looking to the Inner [Wo]Man in the Inner World for the Kingdom of God - NOT to historical, physical, material phenomena!
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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younikrawn
Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 399
Loc: Corvallis, OR
Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#6747876 - 04/04/07 07:27 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Excellent post MarkostheGnostic. Personally I don't believe a word of the Bible. It has been altered and edited and rewritten, used and abused to suit past societies needs (as RR pointed out). But even if the current Bible was accurate... there are enough contradictions and loopholes that it can be used to argue any point.
The question of why a God would create evil has already been answered. You can't have good without bad!
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Don't dream it;be it
===================================
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 6,233
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 9 hours, 53 minutes
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: younikrawn]
#6748566 - 04/04/07 10:16 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for the compliment. Nobody Knows much more about God, if they Know anthing at all, besides 'Gos Is.' Quoting scriptures to preach what God 'wants' beyond our Knowledge of God directly is just puerile. God wants us to be fruitful and multiply. What else people? What else does God 'want' human life to do besides give glory to God - as if God has a need for human beings to feed a Divine ego.
We need to enter into the deepest/highest level of human awareness to discover what we are and what God is. That is a lifetime quest, and while we are busy doing that moment-to-moment, we'll be too preoccupied for knocking over old ladies for their purses, knocking off convenience stores for cash, or knocking up teenage girls to show how manly we are. Voila! The Way makes one ethical and moral. Why stick to this discipline after 30+ years? Grace.
Yes, there is grace, and grace makes one graceful - not necessarily physically graceful, but graceful in the how one looks, thinks, feels, speaks and acts towards other human beings. Not like the bagboy whose face was registering lust for my Lady today at Whole Foods. I was just embarrassed for him. With the absence of grace, I might say to him, "See something you like?" in a challenging tone. Macho moronics. No, I looked away like the guy was masturbating in public. My Lady didn't even notice his existence when I mentioned this to her. No anger, I felt pity. I wonder if most women find him invisible. It is strange how 'maleness' can be transcended by 'humanness,' and the emotional flavor of the awareness of such things. He just lusted. Would I become enraged and violent if someone assaulted my partner? Probably.
"Jesus could walk on the water
The Man could dance on the sea,
But don't you try breathing the water,
Miracles go only so far you see..."
Grace Slick, 'The Son of Jesus,' Jefferson Airplane
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
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ShroomDoom
MycelialInitiate
Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1,379
Loc: A Psychedelic State
Last seen: 2 days, 10 hours
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Re: If God is great, and God is good.....then why does evil exist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#6748674 - 04/04/07 10:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not observable. it is neither here nor there. for lo and behold the kingdom of heaven is within you.
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Listen to Triplag radio, or we will fucking kill you.
http://shoutcast.setnine.com/listen.asx?uid=238
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