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 Salvia_Antics
DMT Convert
 
Registered: 01/28/07
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 Has time been proven to exist? 
#6532904 - 02/05/07 12:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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We have clocks that measure time but are they really measuring anything? Please show me proof. 
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"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen
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 demiu5
broccolilocks
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6533034 - 02/05/07 01:11 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Units of time measure an abstract concept referred to as time
Just like an inch, there is no second or year, or anything of the sort
Our measurement system(s) work for us, people prior to us had their own systems that worked for them, some of which we use today
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TheCow
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6533208 - 02/05/07 02:24 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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check out first tensor analysis, then check out a guy called Einstein. Yes time exists.
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 ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: TheCow]
#6533407 - 02/05/07 03:47 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tensor analysis is no more useful at proving time exists than algebra, geometry, or addition--it's a mathematical framework for working with mathematical constructs, namely tensors (which are just collections of numbers which share certain relationships to each other). Einstein created a few theories which refer to time but that no more proves time exists than using a Newtonian theory of mechanics to calculate the trajectory of an atom proves that matter is purely particle-like.
Define time, and you can get closer to verifying its existence, but in general proof of anything is impossible, only disproof.
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TheCow
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#6533587 - 02/05/07 04:48 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I meant look up tensor analysis, so that he could understand how time is used in a modern sense. And while you are right, I think that in your Newtonian example, while it does not prove the atom has no wave-like properties, it does prove that the atom exists. And in the case of GR, it seems fairly obvious that time is a real construct, and without getting into semantical arguments about how can we really prove anything, Id say that time is a real thing.
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Xtals
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6533631 - 02/05/07 05:04 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salvia_Antics said:
We have clocks that measure time but are they really measuring anything? Please show me proof.
The way you're asking the question doesn't really make any sense.
By definition, time exists, precisely because we have defined it according to phenomena that we can observe (and hence assume exists).
As a consequence, we're simply assuming that time exists, just like we assume that other things exist, without having to get into the nonsense and absurdity of trying to prove everything.
And, as stated above, science can't offer proof of anything, so if you're asking for proof that time exists, then scientists are not the ones you should be asking.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: TheCow]
#6533653 - 02/05/07 05:12 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I disagree that my example proves even the existence of the atom. All it proves is that we can make sometimes useful analogies between symbols and the world around us. Same thing with GR and time--it's damn useful but tomorrow someone might come up with an even more useful theory which doesn't involve time at all or defines it completely differently.
I also disagree that provability is a semantical argument. Non-provability is a cornerstone of the scientific method. In addition, it's hard to disprove something which you can't adequately define in the first place.
I guess this is one of those classic engineer vs. physicist arguments. 
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6533735 - 02/05/07 05:38 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe time is just movement!?
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Salvia_Antics
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Ego Death]
#6533955 - 02/05/07 06:41 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that time is gravity because it has soo much control over the way it flows. sorta. It is also just perception though.
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"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen
Edited by Salvia_Antics (02/05/07 06:46 PM)
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kotik
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6534140 - 02/05/07 07:40 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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time exists no more than numbers exist. they both represent something, but the terms are not definitive of everything that makes up either.
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music: myspace.com/soundscientists
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Salvia_Antics
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: kotik]
#6534192 - 02/05/07 07:57 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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So then does nothing exist, just representations of itself that we create to get through life? And therefore we are in a matrix like place that our minds have created?
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"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen
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DieCommie
El Guapo
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6534875 - 02/05/07 11:02 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salvia_Antics said:
So then does nothing exist, just representations of itself that we create to get through life?
My take is... Its not that nothing exists. Its that our consciousness is bound by our perception, thus we can never be privy to true reality. True reality being defined as that which is real regardless of perception.
Using science gives us insight into the 'true reality' but it will always be obscured by the veil of perception. We define things like time with respect to other things we perceive. This leads to a giant circular reference. You cannot define time without referring to other things we perceive. Just as other things we perceive require time to be defined. Its like looking in a dictionary to learn a language. Look up one word, and you need to look up the words in its definition. Then you need to look up there definitions, and you keep going around. This is what, I think, defining physical quantities amounts to. But Im not dissing this process, in fact I devote most of my time to it.
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Xtals
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6534967 - 02/05/07 11:24 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Look, it's not that we can say whether or not something exists or doesn't exist.
Anyway, science can't answer the question of whether or not something "actually exists." It's just a ridiculous thing to argue about in the first place.
Even if you agree that time only exists in the metaphysical sense, it still serves a useful purpose and we would still treat it as though it exists. If you look at time as a measure of the relative change of configuration states in the universe, then time certainly doesn't exist as a physical thing in the same way a tennis ball exists, but the concept itself still exists.
We name phenomena that we can perceive; whether or not we are perceiving a "physical thing" or a "metaphysical concept" isn't particularly relevant if we can use and understand the idea.
Arguing about whether or not something can be proven is not "semantic" at all. There is such a thing as proof in mathematics and that is not some kind of semantic trick, nor would a semantic discussion on the concept of "proof" in mathematics change anything. We have relatively simple definitions of "proof" within mathematics and logic and there are mathematical and logical proofs.
Scientific hypotheses can never be proven, but not because the concept of "proof" is open to semantic debate.
We don't need to prove that time exists, precisely because we simply assume that it exists. The assertion "time exists" is NOT a scientific hypothesis, so there is no way to present scientific evidence regarding this assertion.
Now, sure, you can argue the semantics of anything, but that is utterly useless and I am operating within the confines of common sense: if you argued the semantics of every concept then you would be ignoring the obvious utility of language)
Quote:
Salvia_Antics said:
I think that time is gravity because it has soo much control over the way it flows.
That's just ridiculous. Why do people come up with crackpot theories on the basis of nothing? I suppose that was supposed to be "deep."
I think that plants are electromagnetic radiation, because of the way that plants interact with electromagnetic radiation to appear coloured.
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ThirdEyeOpening
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6535449 - 02/06/07 01:11 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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No time has not been proven to exist.
One reason it was even thought of, and a scale was made to describe it, was to explain, and predict the changes that can happen while the sun and moon pass over head.
Even saying that is a streach as to why we have a scale for it, or why the scale we have is as such. There is no reason a second HAS to be 1 second. The scale we have was conceved from the moon phases, and the passing of the seasons. Thus we have months, and a year. Days are the rise and fall of the sun. Hours, minutes, and seconds, are the degrees of the suns position in the sky (i think, but i cant remeber exactly.)
The scale we know was only made to try and describe whats happining in the world our ansestors lived in. But as Relitivity perdicts, time is realitive. Your second is most likely not the same span as my second, but its so close that for our reasoning, it doesnt matter.
Reality is realitive. And "time" is a part of reality.
just my .02
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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. Im not too sure about the former. -Einstein
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barfightlard
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6536614 - 02/06/07 02:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salvia_Antics said:
So then does nothing exist, just representations of itself that we create to get through life? And therefore we are in a matrix like place that our minds have created?
"That's just ridiculous. Why do people come up with crackpot theories on the basis of nothing? I suppose that was supposed to be "deep.""
ya man whooooaa trippy
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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Individual
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: barfightlard]
#6537386 - 02/06/07 07:30 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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try to imagine world without time
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THE PHILOSOPHY OF LIBERTY <---
 
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Salvia_Antics
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Individual]
#6537425 - 02/06/07 07:50 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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A universe without our concept of time would be static but since that nothing we know of is static,closest we have is our progress on absolute zero, who knows what would happen.
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"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen
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iateshaggy
i haxor 360s
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6537955 - 02/06/07 10:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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ask me in five minutes.
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You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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Xtals
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#6538125 - 02/06/07 10:52 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salvia_Antics said:
A universe without our concept of time would be static but since that nothing we know of is static,closest we have is our progress on absolute zero, who knows what would happen.
WTF are you talking about?
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DieCommie
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Re: Has time been proven to exist? [Re: Xtals]
#6538236 - 02/06/07 11:27 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xtals said:WTF are you talking about?
 that what i find myself thinking every time i read this forum.
Thats an inherent problem with science on a drug board... you get tripped out individuals thinking they are being extra deep when really they are being quite shallow. Fortunately there are many very bright posters who more than compensate.
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